when Kobe hangs them up where will he be on the GOAT list

[rmt]

What do you base this on? Also, is what I said not true? PER is subjective and a flawed stat. Hollinger gave the most value to what he felt was most important. Essentially, anyone could create a similar stat to PER crediting one category more than another, and thus the list would change.

It isn't anymore viable then if anyone on this site were to make a formula up with their personal beliefs of how stats should be valued.

So, explain why under the SAME subjective/flawed stat - two people playing the same position, under the same coach, under the same system come up with such different PERs. One SCREAMS excellence and the other is meh (relative to his ranking by his stans).

[24-Inch_Chrome]

Duncan > Kobe.

[Ne 1]

So, explain why under the SAME subjective/flawed stat - two people playing the same position, under the same coach, under the same system come up with such different PERs. One SCREAMS excellence and the other is meh (relative to his ranking by his stans).

All you need to know about PER is that it originally suggested that David Robinson was the greatest player of all-time and then Hollinher reworked it. He also said he took minutes into account so you can compare scrubs to actual star players and not miss a beat. A good rule of thumb is that if a stat takes more than a few seconds to explain, it's probably worthless.

[Droid101]

PER was made by Kobe-hater Hollinger.

Hollinger picked the Jazz to beat the Lakers both in 2008 and 2009. He's just a straight hater, through and through. He tailored his formula to make Kobe look worse, period.

[rmt]

All you need to know about PER is that it originally suggested that David Robinson was the greatest player of all-time and then Hollinher reworked it. He also said he took minutes into account so you can compare scrubs to actual star players and not miss a beat. A good rule of thumb is that if a stat takes more than a few seconds to explain, it's probably worthless.

If one is comparing big men with wings/guards, you might have a point that certain stats skew one way or the other. But when comparing 2 players who play similar minutes with similar responsibilities (meaning not scrubs) who play the same position, under the same coach, under the same system, please explain the difference in PERs. You know who I'm referring to. Why under these conditions above, do the SAME flawed/subjective stats favor one SO much over the other (if the latter is so great as you stans claim)?

[G0ATbe]

Top 1.

[Ne 1]

PER was made by Kobe-hater Hollinger.

Hollinger picked the Jazz to beat the Lakers both in 2008 and 2009. He's just a straight hater, through and through. He tailored his formula to make Kobe look worse, period.

He said he watches about 4 baksetball games a year. He also ranked Wade's '06 Finals as the greatest ever.

[warriorfan]

If a statistic(PER) is made up by some pasty f ag who has never touched a rim in his entire life then it probably is bunk

[rmt]

If a statistic(PER) is made up by some pasty f ag who has never touched a rim in his entire life then it probably is bunk

Then shouldn't it be BUNK for 2 players who play the same position, similar minutes/responsibility, under the same coach, playing the same system?

[Jameerthefear]

I have him top 15

[Ne 1]

If a statistic(PER) is made up by some pasty f ag who has never touched a rim in his entire life then it probably is bunk

It's a very very flawed statistic which tries to equate touches with pace and ignores context. Only people with some kind of agenda and don't actually watch the players play use PER as any kind of benchmark. Not to mention PER takes in no account of what a player does defensively or intangibles.

[Ne 1]

According to PER, D-Rob>>Hakeem, D-Rob=Prime Jordan, CP3>peak Magic, Manu>Kobe in '08, Dirk>Bird, Wilt>>>Bill Rusell, Bosh>Kobe in '10, etc etc.

Doesn't pass the sniff test.
Overvalues the impact of pace on numbers, especially for star players. That's one reason guys like CP3/Wade/LeBron, who play on very slow teams, tend to have huge PER numbers. Overvalues rebounding, undervalues assists.

Doesn't really measure defense at all. To quote Dave Berri, the author of The Wages of Wins:

"Hollinger argues that each two point field goal made is worth about 1.65 points. A three point field goal made is worth 2.65 points. A missed field goal, though, costs a team 0.72 points. Given these values, with a bit of math we can show that a player will break even on his two point field goal attempts if he hits on 30.4% of these shots. On three pointers the break-even point is 21.4%. If a player exceeds these thresholds, and virtually every NBA player does so with respect to two-point shots, the more he shoots the higher his value in PERs. So a player can be an inefficient scorer and simply inflate his value by taking a large number of shots."

[dubeta]

According to PER, D-Rob>>Hakeem, D-Rob=Prime Jordan, CP3>peak Magic, Manu>Kobe in '08, Dirk>Bird, Wilt>>>Bill Rusell, Bosh>Kobe in '10, etc etc.

Doesn't pass the sniff test.
Overvalues the impact of pace on numbers, especially for star players. That's one reason guys like CP3/Wade/LeBron, who play on very slow teams, tend to have huge PER numbers. Overvalues rebounding, undervalues assists.

Doesn't really measure defense at all. To quote Dave Berri, the author of The Wages of Wins:

"Hollinger argues that each two point field goal made is worth about 1.65 points. A three point field goal made is worth 2.65 points. A missed field goal, though, costs a team 0.72 points. Given these values, with a bit of math we can show that a player will break even on his two point field goal attempts if he hits on 30.4% of these shots. On three pointers the break-even point is 21.4%. If a player exceeds these thresholds, and virtually every NBA player does so with respect to two-point shots, the more he shoots the higher his value in PERs. So a player can be an inefficient scorer and simply inflate his value by taking a large number of shots."

PER got this nikka shook


Finally came to the realization that Kobe isnt top 15 all-time?

[AirBourne92]

Lmfao eye test isnt a real thing bro, thats why no respected analyst, WHO IS PAID to talk about sports, uses it. They use numbers. You probably listen to Skip Bayless.
Not a kobe fan but I got him in that 6-9 range. Hell end up on the lower end of it probably b/c lebron may win some more rings and fmvps and keep breaking records

those analysts dont even "analyze" basketball in the same manner that professional basketball teams and coaches do.

a basketball team, after a game, will review their box score stats, but think nothing of it--or at least not as much as we do.

what they do is the eye test---they go into the film room and break everything down.

i know this because unlike all you fukboyz in here that talk like you know everything, i actually hooped in college and know people that play semi pro and pro.

NBA coaches are known to not trust statistics, especially advanced statistics.

get the *** outta here with your shit boyy

[rmt]

those analysts dont even "analyze" basketball in the same manner that professional basketball teams and coaches do.

a basketball team, after a game, will review their box score stats, but think nothing of it--or at least not as much as we do.

what they do is the eye test---they go into the film room and break everything down.

i know this because unlike all you fukboyz in here that talk like you know everything, i actually hooped in college and know people that play semi pro and pro.

NBA coaches are known to not trust statistics, especially advanced statistics.

get the *** outta here with your shit boyy

I think coaches do use a lot of advanced statistics. That's why Pop has based his defense on defending the 3 (especially the corner 3) and defending against layups. He's willing to give up contested 2s. That's why Spurs always have difficulty against teams with good midrange jump shooters like Dirk's Mavs and OKC with Durant/Westbrooke. They can hit those all day long.