Where do you guys typically rate Scottie Pippen as a player?

[97 bulls]

93' Jordan was clearly viewed as the Bulls' best defender, and even the LEAGUE'S:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=GilQsS3oifM&t=02m47s



Here's the exchange in the 91' Finals between Marv Albert and Mike Fratello when MJ gets his 2nd foul in Game 2:

ALBERT: Do you stay with Jordan on Johnson?

FRATELLO: There's no question that he's the best guy to play Magic Johnson, but maybe you pick and choose when you put him on Magic..."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8o8l6oM6Jeg&t=12m23s

^^^ this sentiment was echoed by the NBA in the Bulls' Championship Video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WeAUz2dZ_NQ&t=35m03s

So then you don't have a problem with people showing you video of people calling Pippen top 5 in the league, the best perimeter player in the league, the 2nd best player in the league. Because you've been shown this many a time.

[3ball]

So then you don't have a problem with people showing you video of people calling Pippen top 5 in the league, the best perimeter player in the league, the 2nd best player in the league. Because you've been shown this many a time.

The comments I posted about Jordan being the Bulls' best defender and possibly the league's best defender were the consensus - 98% of people were saying that during the 1st three-peat, and tons of people during the 2nd three-peat.

Otoh, the comments you refer to about Pippen are a few exceptions over a 30 year period - 98% of people WEREN'T saying that Pippen was anywhere near a top 2 or top 5 player - that's literally preposterous.. it's like when people said Blake Griffin was top 3 in 2014.

The reality is that most people in the 90's said that Grant Hill, Penny, Kemp, Stockton or Payton were better than Pippen.. And obviously Drexler or Ewing... But as time goes on, Pippen's 6 rings have stood out to new fans, which inflated his ranking.

Pippen was barely top 50 all-time in 1996, and tons of guys like Duncan, Lebron, or Giannis have passed him since - so how is he now ranked top 30??.. it's because new fans/media do on-paper evaluations of him, so the 6 rings vastly overrate him over someone like Ewing's 0 rings.. but NO ONE thought pippen was on ewing's level in the 90's..

The reality is that Jordan retuned in 95' and carried a .500 ballclub to a 3-peat - this saved Pippen from getting truly exposed for the 2nd option that he was..

[Axe]

The comments I posted about Jordan being the Bulls' best defender and possibly the league's best defender were the consensus - 98% of people were saying that during the 1st three-peat, and tons of people during the 2nd three-peat.

Otoh, the comments you refer to about Pippen are a few exceptions over a 30 year period - 98% of people WEREN'T saying that Pippen was anywhere near a top 2 or top 5 player - that's literally preposterous.. it's like when people said Blake Griffin was top 3 in 2014.

The reality is that most people in the 90's said that Grant Hill, Penny, Kemp, Stockton or Payton were better than Pippen.. And obviously Drexler or Ewing... But as time goes on, Pippen's 6 rings have stood out to new fans, which inflated his ranking.

Pippen was barely top 50 all-time in 1996, and tons of guys like Duncan, Lebron, or Giannis have passed him since - so how is he now ranked top 30??.. it's because new fans/media do on-paper evaluations of him, so the 6 rings vastly overrate him over someone like Ewing's 0 rings.. but NO ONE thought pippen was on ewing's level in the 90's..

The reality is that Jordan retuned in 95' and carried a .500 ballclub to a 3-peat - this saved Pippen from getting truly exposed for the 2nd option that he was..

Why did he win more playoff series than/without your goat?

[ImKobe]

Pippen led in Def Rtg for all six chips.
Pippen led in assists as offensive leader for three chips.

What don't you get chico?

He might have had a better DRTG with less minutes played, MJ's ORTG on the other hand..

Jordan washes Pippen in the Playoffs in DRAPM in '97 & '98, luckily for you, we have no data available for the rest of it.

Wow, he led in assists (barely) in 3 runs! Wonder who he was passing to for those assists.

[97 bulls]

The comments I posted about Jordan being the Bulls' best defender and possibly the league's best defender were the consensus - 98% of people were saying that during the 1st three-peat, and tons of people during the 2nd three-peat.

Otoh, the comments you refer to about Pippen are a few exceptions over a 30 year period - 98% of people WEREN'T saying that Pippen was anywhere near a top 2 or top 5 player - that's literally preposterous.. it's like when people said Blake Griffin was top 3 in 2014.

The reality is that most people in the 90's said that Grant Hill, Penny, Kemp, Stockton or Payton were better than Pippen.. And obviously Drexler or Ewing... But as time goes on, Pippen's 6 rings have stood out to new fans, which inflated his ranking.

Pippen was barely top 50 all-time in 1996, and tons of guys like Duncan, Lebron, or Giannis have passed him since - so how is he now ranked top 30??.. it's because new fans/media do on-paper evaluations of him, so the 6 rings vastly overrate him over someone like Ewing's 0 rings.. but NO ONE thought pippen was on ewing's level in the 90's..

The reality is that Jordan retuned in 95' and carried a .500 ballclub to a 3-peat - this saved Pippen from getting truly exposed for the 2nd option that he was..

Lol. I cant even respond to this made up drivel. None of it is true except in your twisted head. You're posts are so bad that I honestly believe you're a Pippen fan.

[Axe]

He might have had a better DRTG with less minutes played, MJ's ORTG on the other hand..

Jordan washes Pippen in the Playoffs in DRAPM in '97 & '98, luckily for you, we have no data available for the rest of it.

Wow, he led in assists (barely) in 3 runs! Wonder who he was passing to for those assists.

Why are we even comparing him against his own teammate?

[ImKobe]

Why are we even comparing him against his own teammate?

We shouldn't, but Jordan haters are acting as if he was just a scorer.

[3ba11]

.
TLDR: Excluding 1994 when Pippen was a 1st option, Pippen was outscored by the opponent's 2nd leading scorer in 12 of 34 series as a Bull (35%), and was matched with far better efficiency in 2 other critical series (98' ECF, 95' ECSF) - so that's 14 of 34 series as a Bull (41%) where his scoring was inferior to the opposing 2nd option.

During title runs, Pippen was outscored 25% of the time by opposing 2nd options, which matches the lower tier of winning sidekicks that never won FMVP or achieved elite 1st option stats (true 2nd options), such as Klay, Pau, Pippen, Rip Hamilton, and Jason Terry.. This caliber is far below the top tier of winning sidekicks that usually outscore opposing 1st options, achieve elite 1st options stats or win FMVP (Curry, Kobe, Kareem, Wade, Worthy, AD, etc).

For Pippen's career, he was outscored by opposing 2nd options in 19 of 41 series that he wasn't 1st option (nearly 50%) - so Pippen wasn't a legit 2nd option because he was outscored by opposing 2nd options half the time and has low peak scoring ability/PPG, while his worst-ever efficiency confirms that he couldn't handle the volume/load.. Ultimately, his low PPG among winning sidekicks and worst-ever efficiency make him the worst-scoring sidekick that ever won.

The most common rings are those won with elite 1st options playing sidekick like Kobe, Curry or Kareem ("1b" sidekicks that have achieved elite 1st option stats or FMVP in their career), while it's much less common to win rings with true 2nd options that never achieved FMVP or 25 ppg (Klay, Pippen, Pau, Rip Hamilton, Jason Terry, Horry) - MJ has 6 rings with these true 2nd options, which is why he's goat.

* From 1999-2003, Pippen was outscored by the opponent's 2nd leading scorer in 7 of 7 series - these numbers will be added to Pippen's Bull career, shown below:


1988 1st Round

Pippen'....... 10.6 ppg... 47.1 fg... 49.4 ts
L Nance...... 16.8 ppg... 53.1 fg... 58.4 ts


1988 2nd Round

Pippen......... 9.4 ppg... 45.8 fg... 48.5 ts
Dantley...... 18.6 ppg... 50.0 fg... 58.9 ts


1989 1st Round

Pippen....... 15.0 ppg... 39.7 fg... 51.0 ts
L Nance..... 19.4 ppg... 55.1 fg... 58.9 ts


1989 2nd Round

Pippen....... 14.8 ppg... 58.1 fg... 64.5 ts
Newman.... 15.5 ppg... 45.8 fg... 56.0 ts


1989 ECF

Pippen......... 9.4 ppg... 40.4 fg... 45.3 ts
Johnson..... 13.7 ppg... 53.3 fg... 59.6 ts


1990 1st Round

Pippen....... 22.5 ppg... 57.1 fg... 63.4 ts
Pierce........ 22.3 ppg... 46.7 fg... 60.4 ts


1990 2nd Round

Pippen........ 20.8 ppg... 53.3 fg... 58.1 ts
Hawkins...... 19.8 ppg... 47.7 fg... 62.6 ts


1990 ECF

Pippen....... 16.6 ppg... 42.6 fg... 52.0 ts
Isiah'......... 17.6 ppg... 39.0 fg... 51.0 ts


1991 1st Round

Pippen....... 19.7 ppg... 50.0 fg... 55.2 ts
Ewing........ 16.7 ppg... 40.0 fg... 47.3 ts


1991 2nd Round

Pippen........ 23.4 ppg... 57.1 fg... 60.9 ts
Hawkins...... 19.8 ppg... 43.1 fg... 64.4 ts


1991 ECF

Pippen......... 22.5 ppg... 47.5 fg... 56.3 ts
Aguirre........ 16.8 ppg... 45.3 fg... 55.4 ts


1991 Finals

Pippen'...... 20.6 ppg... 45.3 fg... 52.7 ts
Magic........ 18.3 ppg... 43.1 fg... 61.2 ts


1992 1st Round

Pippen....... 24.0 ppg... 55.3 fg... 63.0 ts
Ewing........ 19.0 ppg... 37.5 fg... 42.5 ts


1992 2nd Round

Pippen'....... 16.0 ppg... 40.4 fg... 49.3 ts
X-Man........ 18.6 ppg... 49.6 fg... 52.7 ts


1992 ECF

Pippen....... 19.8 ppg... 47.3 fg... 53.6 ts
Nance........ 17.8 ppg... 46.7 fg... 51.9 ts


1992 Finals

Pippen'....... 20.8 ppg... 48.4 fg... 56.0 ts
Porter......... 16.2 ppg... 47.1 fg... 57.1 ts


1993 1st Round

Pippen...... 15.3 ppg... 42.2 fg... 45.7 ts
Willis........ 16.7 ppg... 46.7 fg... 48.9 ts


1993 2nd Round

Pippen......... 18.3 ppg... 47.5 fg... 51.0 ts
Daughtery.... 16.0 ppg... 56.1 fg... 56.1 ts


1993 ECF

Pippen'...... 22.5 ppg... 51.0 fg... 57.3 ts
Starks....... 15.2 ppg... 45.3 fg... 54.6 ts


1993 Finals

Pippen...... 21.2 ppg... 43.9 fg... 45.9 ts
Majerle..... 17.2 ppg... 44.3 fg... 58.7 ts


1994 1st Round

Pippen...... 25.3 ppg... 49.3 fg... 53.7 ts
Mills......... 17.0 ppg... 50.0 fg... 59.5 ts


1994 2nd Round

Pippen...... 21.7 ppg... 40.5 fg... 51.3 ts
Ewing....... 22.9 ppg... 53.0 fg... 58.1 ts


1995 1st Round

Pippen........ 16.0 ppg... 51.2 fg... 60.2 ts
Johnson...... 20.8 ppg... 47.7 fg... 54.6 ts


1995 2nd Round

Pippen'...... 19.0 ppg... 40.9 fg... 52.2 ts
Penny........ 18.5 ppg... 44.0 fg... 54.7 ts


1996 1st Round

Pippen..,,..... 19.7 ppg... 55.6 fg... 64.0 ts
Hardaway'.... 17.7 ppg... 46.5 fg... 57.5 ts


1996 2nd Round

Pippen..,,,,,.... 15.6 ppg... 33.0 fg... 41.6 ts
Oakley........... 13.4 ppg... 50.0 fg... 57.7 ts


1996 ECF

Pippen'...... 18.5 ppg... 45.3 fg... 50.8 ts
Penny........ 25.5 ppg... 46.9 fg... 55.2 ts


1996 Finals

Pippen...... 15.7 ppg... 34.0 fg... 42.9 ts
Payton...... 18.0 ppg... 44.4 fg... 53.2 ts


1997 1st Round

Pippen....... 16.7 ppg... 38.9 fg... 49.8 ts
Howard...... 18.7 ppg... 45.5 fg... 53.9 ts


1997 2nd Round

Pippen...... 22.2 ppg... 42.9 fg... 52.4 ts
Smith....... 17.6 ppg... 31.9 fg... 49.1 ts


1997 ECF

Pippen......... 16.8 ppg... 41.7 fg... 52.6 ts
Mourning..... 15.6 ppg... 46.8 fg... 56.2 ts


1997 Finals

Pippen....... 20.0 ppg... 42.1 fg... 54.1 ts
Stockton.... 15.0 ppg... 50.0 fg... 61.3 ts


1998 1st Round

Pippen....... 18.0 ppg... 43.6 fg... 53.1 ts
Kitttles...... 16.3 ppg... 42.5 fg... 54.6 ts


1998 2nd Round

Pippen....... 17.8 ppg... 44.3 fg... 53.5 ts
Mason........ 12.6 ppg... 51.0 fg... 55.3 ts


1998 ECF

Pippen....... 16.6 ppg... 39.2 fg... 46.3 ts
Smits........ 16.3 ppg... 55.4 fg... 62.8 ts


1998 Finals

Pippen.......... 15.7 ppg... 41.0 fg... 50.2 ts
Hornacek...... 10.7 ppg... 41.1 fg... 50.1 ts


* From 1999-2003, Pippen was outscored by the opponent's 2nd leading scorer in 7 of 7 series - these numbers will be added to Pippen's Bull career, shown above

[3ba11]

.
Among notable 90's sidekicks, Pippen had the worst passing, efficiency, spacing, clutch (here, here, here, here, here), and lowest peak capability (not on scouting report).. Pippen's low peak capability meant that MJ faced maximum defensive attention (carried scoring load) for every season and series of his career (unique to Jordan).. As the links show, this is all historical record..

Notice how Pippen says that he couldn't win alongside a great center in the "spacing" link (he says he couldn't provide the spacing that a center-oriented offense requires) - so shooters like Starks or Sean Elliot would be 2nd options alongside centers like Ewing or Duncan.. Pippen was only a 2nd option alongside the goat scorer and otherwise guys like Kukoc were preferred in the 2nd half of playoff games.. In the 98' Playoffs, Kukoc was 2nd on the Bulls in 4th quarter scoring (kukoc, pippen) and clutch time scoring (last 5 within 5).. Outside of the triangle and dynasty system that he grew up in, Pippen was worse than Jeff Green (14 on 40% alongside Hakeem) - he was only a 2nd option alongside the goat scorer.

Accordingly, the proper way to perceive MJ and Pippen is that MJ was simply good enough to win with Pippen's decade-worst passing and efficiency among 90's sidekicks - the resulting winning spotlight is why Pippen started making All-NBA in 1992 (5th season).. Compare this trajectory to 4th-year Jamal Murray from the 2020 Playoffs - Jokic wasn't good enough to win with Murray's 27/5/7 on 63% true shooting (better than Pippen ever played), so Murray wasn't elevated to media accolade thereafter like Pippen.. This is just a simple example but it applies to anyone that fails to win with Iggy-caliber help from the sidekick.

[Street Hunger]

Scottie was a pretty great player on his own.

[Axe]

Scottie was a pretty great player on his own.

True. However, praising him for that is a huge disgrace amongst weird and zealous jordan stans when the guy even used to admit that he would have gone nowhere without him.

[John8204]

The trolls overrate/underrate him, but honestly, where does he rank in history? Are the Bulls just as successful without him? Is he a franchise caliber player or just a REALLY good #2 like Bean was in 2000?

Well based on position and generation here's how I see it...

Small Forward top six is set Larry Bird, Dr. J, John Havlicek, Elgin Baylor, Rick Barry, Kevin Durant

Dominique Wilkins, Paul Arizin, Kwahi Leonard, Carmello Anthony, Adrian Dantley, Alex English, Tracy McGrady, Jimmy Butler, Paul Pierce, and James Worthy

Looking at his generation once again top ten set in my eyes

Michael Jordan, Hakeem Olajuwon, John Stockton, Shaq, Charles Barkley, David Robinson, Karl Malone, Isiah Thomas, Patrick Ewing, Reggie Miller.

You might be able to put him at 10, but he's near Reggie, Clyde, Rodman, Payton

So bisecting the two lines...of position and generation 45-55 would be roughly where I would rank him