How much you have to earn to be considered middle class in every US state

[sundizz]

Honestly, that graph shows absolutely nothing. It should show it by population density or some other better statistic than "state". California is so huge and you can't compare people living in San Francisco to people living in Riverside (a shitty place east of Los Angeles) or some other awful place.

That said, that graph seems about right for the useless point it is trying to make.

Also, as someone that is from Silicon Valley and intimately familiar with startups NumberSix you are an absolute idiot.

If you need $700,000 to start a business (or even think that is how a business begins) you are a complete idiot. What you are talking about is starting a restaurant or some other fool hardy idea that worked in the 70's and 80's.

Also, yes bankruptcy law does mitigate that in the fact that your debt gets cleared out. Certain types of debt (e.g., student loans, etc) don't get cleared out.

Also, dummy you are not in debt, you just lost your money (if you did an absolutely terrible job).

And way more importantly, being a business owner is not something the average person should aspire to. It's something extraordinarily confident, resourceful and well connected people should aspire to.

Let's take a very simple example:

700k to start with

Restaurant finances (monthly):
- Income $23,400 a month (60 people/day, $15 spent per day, 26 days)
- Expenditures $28,000 a month
- You of course work at the restaurant, and pay yourself $4,000 a month.
- You are losing $4,600 a month

Let's say you spent $400,000 to get everything up and running. This leaves $300,000 in the bank. At the rate of -$4,600 and +$4,000 you are a net -$600 loss. This means you could theoretically run this business for 41 years before you run out of money. And at that time you can STILL SELL the BUSINESS and come out with a little cash.

So, summarily, you get to run a business for 41 years doing something you love, you still earn $4,000 a year and you come out on top at the end if you picked a good location/etc.

In what world is this a bad life? Just because you don't get rich doing it?

The difference between people that live life well (in material terms) is this scarcity mentality. There is always money and the repercussions (except your own insecurity/fear of people seeing you fail) are very very minimal. There has never been an easier time to pick yourself up from having no money.

[ALBballer]

is all of that really possible w/ less than 50k? that would be surprising. american cost of living is very cheap tho

Probably not. I should of clarified the figures for upper middle class is doable.

[RidonKs]

Probably not. I should of clarified the figures for upper middle class is doable.

that's about right. to live comfortably with the criteria you listed, i think it would take at minimum $75k in a household. that even seems like a low estimate, especially factoring childrens activities which you didn't list plus some tuition fees so your kid doesn't go into too much debt... another one is upgrading your infrastructure, your house, moving to a new house, etc... all supposedly a part of the mythical american middle class experience

[bballnoob1192]

hmmmm............the 5 mile radius of where i live. the avg household income is almost 80k and i live in california. so on average we be ballin






lol JKing. Im sure this is a lot less than other places.

[falc39]

i object even to the very notion that it's YOUR business

if i work there and contribute to its success in meaningful ways, i have just as much right to call it MY business. though not according to the law. but who wrote the law?

Why don't you just start your own business?

[RidonKs]

Why don't you just start your own business?

i intend to

[Heavincent]

i object even to the very notion that it's YOUR business

if i work there and contribute to its success in meaningful ways, i have just as much right to call it MY business. though not according to the law. but who wrote the law?

lol what the **** is this?

[UK2K]

i object even to the very notion that it's YOUR business

if i work there and contribute to its success in meaningful ways, i have just as much right to call it MY business. though not according to the law. but who wrote the law?

So... someone starts a business with their own personal investment and takes all the risk, and because they hire me, its somehow mine now too?



Well, shit, Im walking into the CEO's office right now, because I think I can run this company better... and since technically according to you, its kind of mine too, he needs to sit there and listen.

I'll let you know how it goes.

[rufuspaul]

As a business owner I learned a long time ago that good employees are a necessity but the only irreplaceable member of the team is me. I've had employees who do their job well but start to feel more and more entitled, to the point where they make unreasonable demands and threaten to leave if they don't get what they want. When I first started out I would generally cave in to these demands for fear of losing a good employee. This left me with a sense of resentment and gave the employee empowerment to come up with new demands. Eventually I learned that if someone thinks the grass is greener on the other side then let them go. I don't get a lot of turnover (cuz I'm such a nice guy to work for ) but each time it happens it turns out to be a positive in the long run. I realize that a lot of my success is contingent on the work of my employees and I reward them for it, but in the end the business is my baby.

[Thorpesaurous]

As a business owner I learned a long time ago that good employees are a necessity but the only irreplaceable member of the team is me. I've had employees who do their job well but start to feel more and more entitled, to the point where they make unreasonable demands and threaten to leave if they don't get what they want. When I first started out I would generally cave in to these demands for fear of losing a good employee. This left me with a sense of resentment and gave the employee empowerment to come up with new demands. Eventually I learned that if someone thinks the grass is greener on the other side then let them go. I don't get a lot of turnover (cuz I'm such a nice guy to work for ) but each time it happens it turns out to be a positive in the long run. I realize that a lot of my success is contingent on the work of my employees and I reward them for it, but in the end the business is my baby.

I don't own a business, but I work for a small business, 30ish people, and I'm involved in management.

I've come to learn over the years, that yes, most employees, even good ones, are replaceable. But there are key people, who while replaceable, are so ingrained in the production process, that it won't be pleasant. And I've found that by recognizing those people, and not necessarily financially, but by including them in business wide conversations, even if you're not really taking their opinion with much value (although I find that even if you do go into a meeting like that, you very well may change your mind if they make enough sense), you can keep that employee happy without having to eventually see crazy demands.

We did lose a really valuable guy last year to the crazy demand scenario. He was young and talented as a machinest, which is rare these days. But he just kept coming back and asking for more. He had another offer, and weather it was what he told us it was, I don't know, but we told him to take it.

[rufuspaul]

I don't own a business, but I work for a small business, 30ish people, and I'm involved in management.

I've come to learn over the years, that yes, most employees, even good ones, are replaceable. But there are key people, who while replaceable, are so ingrained in the production process, that it won't be pleasant. And I've found that by recognizing those people, and not necessarily financially, but by including them in business wide conversations, even if you're not really taking their opinion with much value (although I find that even if you do go into a meeting like that, you very well may change your mind if they make enough sense), you can keep that employee happy without having to eventually see crazy demands.

We did lose a really valuable guy last year to the crazy demand scenario. He was young and talented as a machinest, which is rare these days. But he just kept coming back and asking for more. He had another offer, and weather it was what he told us it was, I don't know, but we told him to take it.

Good point.

[UK2K]

As a business owner I learned a long time ago that good employees are a necessity but the only irreplaceable member of the team is me. I've had employees who do their job well but start to feel more and more entitled, to the point where they make unreasonable demands and threaten to leave if they don't get what they want. When I first started out I would generally cave in to these demands for fear of losing a good employee. This left me with a sense of resentment and gave the employee empowerment to come up with new demands. Eventually I learned that if someone thinks the grass is greener on the other side then let them go. I don't get a lot of turnover (cuz I'm such a nice guy to work for ) but each time it happens it turns out to be a positive in the long run. I realize that a lot of my success is contingent on the work of my employees and I reward them for it, but in the end the business is my baby.

You are only worth what someone is willing to pay you.

That's true no matter where you work.

What min wage pushers dont understand.

[GimmeThat]

I don't own a business, but I work for a small business, 30ish people, and I'm involved in management.

I've come to learn over the years, that yes, most employees, even good ones, are replaceable. But there are key people, who while replaceable, are so ingrained in the production process, that it won't be pleasant. And I've found that by recognizing those people, and not necessarily financially, but by including them in business wide conversations, even if you're not really taking their opinion with much value (although I find that even if you do go into a meeting like that, you very well may change your mind if they make enough sense), you can keep that employee happy without having to eventually see crazy demands.

We did lose a really valuable guy last year to the crazy demand scenario. He was young and talented as a machinest, which is rare these days. But he just kept coming back and asking for more. He had another offer, and weather it was what he told us it was, I don't know, but we told him to take it.

I think that, if I may, to pin point to what your management style may prohibit to the size of the company.

Goals.

And I mean that in a way when you say 'the key people who are so ingrained with the production process, that it won't be pleasant when you replace them'

I think that on a lower staff level, this probably doesn't really matter. But on a management level, even with defined roles, with everyone having different and particular ways to go at things, letting those company wide staff understand that promotion possibilities exist, can be quite crucial to ones development. And that to me involves setting goals of what each positions ought to meet, even at the early stage of planning.

And before one were to criticize and be caution about the fact that some companies management staff do become too goal oriented, that the turn over rate becomes undesirable. It is probably important to revise your goal to your currently employed personnel, aka, the inclusion of what makes them so irreplaceable to be well known, all while attempt to remove the possibility of bias.

After all, if one had to play favoritism, it is better to include medal.

'why be a mid sized company if you can be on the upper larger end?
because its better off having a large sum of outsourcing on your balance sheet, than having large debt with limited differentiation that may grow exponentially'


No, I am not an accountant

[RidonKs]

So... someone starts a business with their own personal investment and takes all the risk, and because they hire me, its somehow mine now too?



Well, shit, Im walking into the CEO's office right now, because I think I can run this company better... and since technically according to you, its kind of mine too, he needs to sit there and listen.

I'll let you know how it goes.

no i'm not talking about the law

i'm talking about success factors and basic fairness. if you break it down, it becomes clear that 'founders' are disproportionately rewarded.

or who knows maybe i'm a lunatic suggesting the latest burger flipper at mcdonalds should be raised to high level executive and awarded a seven figure salary....

this is just the capitalist ethic. it isn't all bad of course. when you isolate the profit motive in a single agent, you can predict his actions for one thing. but its just a remarkable system for sniffing out inefficiencies in the society. for the right price somebody will come along with a fix... usually.

nevertheless that isolation does not reflect our actual social lives. there is an inherent contradiction between the values we feel with friends and family in our best of times, and the values we profess in light of the free market.

it's not like you operate day to day attempting to maximize your market share of people willing to listen to you. or exchanging compliments with friends for mutual satisfaction. do you buy low and sell high at the dining room table when your kid asks for your fish stick?

or perhaps you do..

[RidonKs]

You are only worth what someone is willing to pay you.

That's true no matter where you work.

What min wage pushers dont understand.

ah so if, for whatever reason mind you, nobody is willing to pay me; i am thus worthless and by all rights should be left to die in the street

hell of a principle there man, i see you have been paying attention to the paul's