MJ's defense.

[OldSchoolBBall]

Very deceiving video considering the era.

You guys have to remember MJ had the luxury of playing in hand checking era. If he played in today's era he would get blown-by with ease.

He got to use his hands and everything.

This is why I say he's overrated on defense.

Jordan had the quickest feet of any player above 6'4" ever. His defensive positioning would be elite in any era, handcheck or not. He rarely handchecked anyway - certainly not as much as guys like Dumar/Rodman/Pippen/Payton.

[Clifton]

One of the most disruptive perimeter defenders ever still can't approach a big mans impact. Just the way it is.

Well, he proved year in year out to have more "impact" than Karl Malone, prime Kemp, and Patrick Ewing. In the 90s, everyone had a great frontcourt except the Bulls. The Bulls still won the title almost every year, and usually because of their defense. Pippen was a great defender, but Jordan intimidated and disrupted guys. I don't know if I'd say Jordan was better, but his achievements on that end, combined with scoring 30+ppg for basically his entire Bulls career, is amazing.

[West-Side]

So? Didn't stop him from becoming the GOAT.

Just the way it is.

Stop, didn't Jordan win DPOTY?
So, that retard is right; Jordan didn't have the same impact as a big man...that particular year, he had MORE impact than any big man.

Yes, a great defensive big man is more valuable in most circumstances.
But take a look at Posey & T.Allen and what they did against Kobe in 2008; than go compare that to Duncan & Robinson.

Kobe torched two of the best low-post defenders in league history yet struggled against two great perimeter defenders.

A lot of the times match-ups dictates your value as a defender.
Jordan, Payton, Cooper were legendary perimeter defenders; better than guys like Raja Bell, Patterson, Bowen and maybe even Tony Allen.

In certain match-ups there were easily more valuable than some of the best anchors in the league.

It's never so black and white.

[West-Side]

Moncrief winning back to back DPOTY's is still maybe the most impressive thing I've seen in this league.

[diamenz]

jordan was a good defender amid the first threepeat, but he was never the most "impactful".


that title belonged to the bulls' captain, and lead playmaker and defender, scottie pippen.


i cant post the numbers right now (looks as though the website i want to link you is down)

but pippen's numbers on the defensive end completely shred jordan.


thats not to say dude was awful, but not nearly one of the most impactful as you eluded to.

you're so subtle in your ways, mehya.

[ClipperRevival]

A thread about MJ and his fans proceed to bring up Kobe. MJ has been retired for a long time now. Stop trying to bring up Kobe's name in a thread about MJ to make kids believe that MJ is 'god' since Kobe's name is brought up. Also, Kobe's played in the hand checking era too.

Back to the topic at hand in regards to MJ's defense, while he was good defensively, he had the luxury of using his hands and they can play 'zone'...MJ would camp out and cut off passing lanes.

It is just one of the many benefits of being able to use your hands to push, shove and pull.

The OP kindly put up a link to a search...you guys can choose various video and see what I am talking about.

A guy who never saw MJ play commenting on MJ. Nice. And it's not like YOU don't have an agenda. I see your Kobe threads.

And MJ could hand check but so could the people guarding him. It goes both ways. But I know one thing, if I'm a perimeter player, I would rather play in this era versus the era MJ played in. The rules are much more geared towards perimeter players today.

[sportjames23]

Yes. Can you offer anything else to this forum other than the little-known fact that Jordan was the greatest player in the history of the sport?

Nigguh, that's all that matters.

Now carry on.

[ClipperRevival]

One of the most disruptive perimeter defenders ever still can't approach a big mans impact. Just the way it is.

Strictly from a defensive standpoint, I would say true.

But if you look at what MJ brought to the table and measure his OVERALL impact on the game on both ends, I don't know if anyone was more impactful, regardless of position. He gave you the GOAT scoring on offense and still gave you all time great D from his position. And like I said, he wasn't just a positional defender who just tried to play good, solid D. He took it further and impacted the game on D by creating turnovers.

[Rocketswin2013]

Stop, didn't Jordan win DPOTY?
So, that retard is right; Jordan didn't have the same impact as a big man...that particular year, he had MORE impact than any big man.

Yes, a great defensive big man is more valuable in most circumstances.
But take a look at Posey & T.Allen and what they did against Kobe in 2008; than go compare that to Duncan & Robinson.

Kobe torched two of the best low-post defenders in league history yet struggled against two great perimeter defenders.

A lot of the times match-ups dictates your value as a defender.
Jordan, Payton, Cooper were legendary perimeter defenders; better than guys like Raja Bell, Patterson, Bowen and maybe even Tony Allen.

In certain match-ups there were easily more valuable than some of the best anchors in the league.

It's never so black and white.

Tony Allen? James Posey? There's this PF/C named Kevin ****ing Garnett who played with the Celtics in 2008. He may have had a tiny bit of impact on how great that team was defensively.

You're talking as if the Celtics perimeter defenders would even play into the chest of Kobe Bryantc the way they did if Garnett's GOAT level lane closing from 5 - 12 feet and Perkins' rim protection wasn't there to back them up.

By the way, Allen was a non-factor on the '08 Celtics and played 19 whole minutes in the Finals. So I don't know where this Allen shutting down Bryant in the 2008 Finals came from.

There are never many, if any scenarios where any perimeter defender is worth more than a big man who can play great defense.

And that comment about Jordan having the most defensive impact in 1988 is just false. Jordan winning that DPOY was an absolute joke then, and it still is.

Jordan's overall prime defense is overrated. Chicago got better defensively without him in 1994.

[ClipperRevival]

Tony Allen? James Posey? There's this PF/C named Kevin ****ing Garnett who played with the Celtics in 2008. He may have had a tiny bit of impact on how great that team was defensively.

You're talking as if the Celtics perimeter defenders would even play into the chest of Kobe Bryantc the way they did if Garnett's GOAT level lane closing from 5 - 12 feet and Perkins' rim protection wasn't there to back them up.

By the way, Allen was a non-factor on the '08 Celtics and played 19 whole minutes in the Finals. So I don't know where this Allen shutting down Bryant in the 2008 Finals came from.

There are never many, if any scenarios where any perimeter defender is worth more than a big man who can play great defense.

And that comment about Jordan having the most defensive impact in 1988 is just false. Jordan winning that DPOY was an absolute joke then, and it still is.

Jordan's overall prime defense is overrated. Chicago got better defensively without him in 1994.

Nice try. MJ in 1988 had one of the highest DWS ever at 6.1 for a perimeter player. His 3.2 spg was 9th best ever in a single season and his 1.6 bpg is a record for guards. And that's just the numbers. The guy was a dominant defensive force in 1988 and was all over the court.

[West-Side]

Tony Allen? James Posey? There's this PF/C named Kevin ****ing Garnett who played with the Celtics in 2008. He may have had a tiny bit of impact on how great that team was defensively.

You're talking as if the Celtics perimeter defenders would even play into the chest of Kobe Bryantc the way they did if Garnett's GOAT level lane closing from 5 - 12 feet and Perkins' rim protection wasn't there to back them up.

By the way, Allen was a non-factor on the '08 Celtics and played 19 whole minutes in the Finals. So I don't know where this Allen shutting down Bryant in the 2008 Finals came from.

There are never many, if any scenarios where any perimeter defender is worth more than a big man who can play great defense.

And that comment about Jordan having the most defensive impact in 1988 is just false. Jordan winning that DPOY was an absolute joke then, and it still is.

Jordan's overall prime defense is overrated. Chicago got better defensively without him in 1994.

Go re-watch the 2008 and 2010 finals and tell me why Kobe struggled.
Pierce, Allen, Ray Allen, Posey all did a fantastic job.

Your post doesn't even ****ing make sense considering Kobe has TORCHED Garnett and Duncan in the playoffs before. Go watch Lakers play Minnesota and San Antonio from 2000-2002.

Go watch what Kobe did to Duncan in the 2009 playoffs.
Kobe struggled against Detroit for the same reasons; PERIMETER defense.

[Rocketswin2013]

Nice try. MJ in 1988 had one of the highest DWS ever at 6.1 for a perimeter player. His 3.2 spg was 9th best ever in a single season and his 1.6 bpg is a record for guards. And that's just the numbers. The guy was a dominant defensive force in 1988 and was all over the court.

And he still wasn't better than Hakeem on that end. I don't like boxscore stats for defensive impact. But since that's all we have for players pre-1994-ish outside of watching games, Hakeem led his team to an elite DRTG while leading the league in individual DRTG and individual DWS. The entire top 20 in individual DRTG had a teammate in the list. For instance, Jordan and Oakley were in it along with Pippen. Malone and Eaton near the top... And other playera on other teams. Hakeem was the sole Rocket in the top 20 and the only sub-100 DRTG in the entire league. You look at that a Rockets roster and it wouldn't be a stretch to say Hakeem was practically one man wrecking crew defensively that year.

[ClipperRevival]

And he still wasn't better than Hakeem on that end. I don't like boxscore stats for defensive impact. But since that's all we have for players pre-1994-ish outside of watching games, Hakeem led his team to an elite DRTG while leading the league in individual DRTG and individual DWS. The entire top 20 in individual DRTG had a teammate in the list. For instance, Jordan and Oakley were in it along with Pippen. Malone and Eaton near the top... And other playera on other teams. Hakeem was the sole Rocket in the top 20 and the only sub-100 DRTG in the entire league. You look at that a Rockets roster and it wouldn't be a stretch to say Hakeem was practically one man wrecking crew defensively that year.

There's not much to argue here. MJ won DPOY and I thought he deserved it. If you thought someone else deserved it, that's fine. But don't sit there and tell me he was overrated. Dude was a beast in 1988.

[97 bulls]

Quote:

Originally Posted by*Rocketswin2013

One of the most disruptive perimeter defenders ever still can't approach a big mans impact. Just the way it is.

Then how do you explain Scottie Pippens 1995 season? Who anchored that defense?

He led the league in defensive rating, had a defenisve win share of 6.7, led the league in steals, avg over a block a game, and the Bulls were second in defense. Why? Luc Longley? Will Perdue? Toni Kukoc? Id put that season up to any centers.

[aj1987]

Then how do you explain Scottie Pippens 1995 season? Who anchored that defense?

He led the league in defensive rating, had a defenisve win share of 6.7, led the league in steals, avg over a block a game, and the Bulls were second in defense. Why? Luc Longley? Will Perdue? Toni Kukoc? Id put that season up to any centers.

Pip deserved MORE consideration for DPOY in '95.

Wade also deserved to be first team All-D from '09-'12 and '06 and 2nd team in '13.