Where does Duncan rank all time if he gets #6 this year?

[dhsilv]

On the teams he was on, its a no brainer that it had to be him. The 08 championship team really went thru him as well.

When KG came into the league, the big man development program had just stopped maybe two or three years before. KG came in a tweener, slim and fast feet that he could guard SG but was 7'0 feet. He was most likely the youngest guy in the league. They decided to make him a small forward and he did the first two years there. Since he didn't go to college he took it upon himself to learn all the positions to compensate on learning the game. His blocking shots and rebounding tenacity was very high and he went to the PF position.

I think it was the right position for him as his production in his prime was close to identical to TD's, the best PF ever. He lead the league in rebounding for 4 straight years. KG never had a team really built around him. It was usually a throw together group because Minny rarely had a strategy of development. Never had a dependable shooter or a very good big next to him. Scerbiack was a pretty good shooter but got hurt alot and wasn't as good under pressure. Cassell was the shooter that was needed but KG ended up being the set up man in WCFs.

Had those teams more structure, a consistent shooter, a dependable second best player, a big man program... KG would have shined as a player to go thru. He was the best player in the league when 3 Top ten GOATS were in their prime and in much better situations.

The thing is, some guys are people you run an offense through. Others make everyone better and can play off those other players. There are guys who can make others better on offense without ever touching the ball (this is a true skill with an off ball player). KG has that skillset. If they'd had playmakers around him, those guys would have been better. How much better? Well that's the part we never saw.

BTW when did McCale join the wolves? I mean who ever could have been a better big man coach?

[Pointguard]

The thing is, some guys are people you run an offense through. Others make everyone better and can play off those other players. There are guys who can make others better on offense without ever touching the ball (this is a true skill with an off ball player). KG has that skillset. If they'd had playmakers around him, those guys would have been better. How much better? Well that's the part we never saw.

BTW when did McCale join the wolves? I mean who ever could have been a better big man coach?

Good posting throughout the thread dhsily.

On McHale, I don't think he's a good teacher. Has he ever developed anybody in Minny? The Kandi man? Have you ever saw McHale on these roundball shows? He's comes off as odd first and then you wonder if he's good at communicating. But he doesn't come off as a teacher of the game, tho I'm sure he is smart. And he did play the game smart. But Boston would have kept him if he was great with certain teaching qualities. They are good for that.

[dhsilv]

Good posting throughout the thread dhsily.

On McHale, I don't think he's a good teacher. Has he ever developed anybody in Minny? The Kandi man? Have you ever saw McHale on these roundball shows? He's comes off as odd first and then you wonder if he's good at communicating. But he doesn't come off as a teacher of the game, tho I'm sure he is smart. And he did play the game smart. But Boston would have kept him if he was great with certain teaching qualities. They are good for that.

KG and a lot of people speak highly of him, but I have no idea if he can coach fundamentals. I'd imagine just doing low post drills you'd pick stuff up from the guy. His post game was freaking amazing.

We'll see what happens with Towns I suppose. There is a guy who can become an elite post player if he's developed.

[Spurs5Rings2014]

2. The can't do it list. MJ and Kareem. You cannot make an argument for Duncan over either of these guys.

It's actually quite easy as I've done so countless times. It all comes down to proper context when evaluating between all-time greats. You have to take everything into account, so without further ado.

1.) Era - Kareem played in the 70's. If Duncan won a 6th ring, the only real, big "immovable" edge Kareem would have would have to be MVP's, right? Well, Kareem racked up all but one of his MVP's in the weakest era of all time -- the 70's. There were literally no other top 10 all time greats that played in this era besides Kareem other than Wilt.

But guess what? Wilt was on his last legs and left early on while Dr. J (who isn't top 10, but still arguably top 15 at least) was in the ABA, racking up MVP's over there. So who exactly was Kareem competing with here to win all his MVP's? Rick Barry? Bill Walton? Those guys are good and all, but not top 10'ers. They're not guys like Shaq, Kobe and the like. Guys that Duncan had to beat out for his MVP's.

The 70's were just a weak era, the weakest of all time in fact. More teams won championships during that decade than any other in NBA history. This also exasperates the issue with Kareem winning one sole title in that whole era. And he did that with the #2 PG of all time. Who did he win his other titles with? The #1 PG of all time, which brings me to my next point.

2.) Personnel - Kareem won all 6 of his rings with the top 2 PG's of all time. Straight up. Two top 15 players, one even being a top 5 player in most people's top 10. You cannot compare Parker or Manu to either of those guys. You just can't do it.

Not only that, but in the 80's with the Lakers where he won 5 out of 6 of his chips, he played on star-studded rosters, literally the most stacked team of the decade that went to the finals almost every year.

These aren't scrubs we're talking about there. After all, they snatched all but one FMVP out of Kareem's grasp. His teams were so good, they clenched a 'ship with him chilling at home watching the game on his T.V. set. Magic, a fellow top 5 player of all time in most people's eyes, put up an astonishing 42 points, 15 rebounds and 7 assists playing center in Kareem's place.

When did Duncan ever have THAT kind of talent around him? Jamaal freaking Wilkes put up 37 and 10 in that game. Are you kidding me? Duncan never had squads that could do that in his absence during the finals. In fact, Pop has a putrid 2-7 record without Duncan and yet Pointguard would have you believe this guy is the driving force behind all of the Spurs' success.

Don't even get me started on the rest of the cast for some of those teams. James Worthy, Michael Cooper, Bob McAdoo. Those teams were absolutely loaded to the brim and dominated the era like no other.

Does anyone really think Duncan wouldn't win more than 5 playing with Oscar and Magic for 10+ years? I mean, the guy only won more chips with no other All-NBA teammate than anyone else ever. Not only does he get to play with those guys, but you compound things even further by them playing in a historically weak conference, which leads me to...

3.) Strength of Competition - Kareem played in one of the weakest conferences the NBA has ever seen. This is insane considering just how STACKED the East was during this whole stint with the Celtics, the 6'ers, The Pistons, The Bulls, etc. Lakers were feasting on sub .500 teams routinely in the first couple rounds of the play offs. Very LeBron-esque.

Then you have Duncan in the much stronger conference of his era, having to go through not one, but TWO top 10 players of all time year in and year out during his prime. The West also having Malone's Jazz in the late 90's, Webber's Kings in the early 2000's, Dirk's Mavs, Nash's Suns, etc. It was a bloodbath.

There's not even really much to say about this anymore. It's obvious one played in a really weak conference where he had the most stacked team by far, possibly even the most stacked team of all time, and the other played in one of the toughest ones where he was the one having to go through two top 10's instead of being the one with two top 10's while also having to contend with a plethora of other top 15-20 players all in the same conference.

4.) 2-way play - Kareem, while not a horrible defender or anything, was clearly not the defender Duncan is. He was above average, even good, but you can't really compare him to one of, if not the greatest 2-way player of all time.

Duncan literally has the most All-NBA and All-Defensives of all time. 15 and 15, straight up monster on both ends of the floor and most of his impact doesn't even show up in the stat sheet.

Not only that, but as Kareem aged and got older, he actually STOPPED playing defense and rebounding to a workable degree whereas Duncan has stayed consistent as one of the best defensive anchors in the league.

5.) Final Thoughts - Don't really feel like putting these points into a bunch of different sub-categories for the above facts, but I will reiterate. Kareem played in the weakest era in NBA history. In this era, he won a SINGLE ring with the #2 PG of all time.

He had plenty of play offs where he came up short in this era, getting bounced with the higher seed and better team against non-top 10'ers. In this era is where he racked up almost all of his MVP's.

In the 80's, he racked up a single MVP in 1980, the first year, and then commenced to lose the FMVP in an MVP season for him while the GOAT PG on his stacked team proceeded to play his position in one of the greatest NBA finals performances of all time to a tune of 42-15-7 while a roleplayer on that same team put up 37 and 10 in a close out game for the 'ship.

His help isn't even comparable to Duncan's, and in years where he was still capable of MVP (whereas you see Duncan carrying a 14 ppg on 38% FG Parker as his second best option to a chip against a team that 3peated with 2 top 10's).

He played in a historically weak conference against myriad sub .500 teams en route to facing whoever emerged from the bloodbath that was the East of that era, going to almost every single finals.

In those finals, he won a single FMVP while his ATG teammates snatched away the rest. In his last two 'ships even, he was hardly even a contributor so when you look at his rings and say, "he has 6, Duncan has to match him," then turn around and add that, "but Duncan has to be all-star/all-NBA level," and pretty much The Man when Kareem was literally a corpse in '88, you can see why I have to shake my head at this.

Context, people. Everything in context please. I've said it before and I'll say it again, throw another top 10 all time great or hell even top 15-20 player back in the 70's when Kareem entered the league and have them play with the 2 GOAT PG's for 10+ seasons and I highly doubt they do much worse than Kareem. I would even wager plenty would do better.

His career is pretty much the perfect circumstances for an ATG player. Weakest era of all time to put up your ATG stats/rack up MVP with old washed up/not in same league other ATG's, 2 of the greatest second options of all time to feed and dish you the ball better than anyone ever, the most stacked team in the by far weaker of the two conferences during your decline, but still a few MVP level seasons for you to gather some FMVP's and show you're The Man.

I really don't see how many could do much worse.