Kyrie, Wade and Pippen's stats during successful championship runs

[CTbasketball92]

Draymond was the Warriors' 3rd option, compared to Pippen being 2nd option, so that means the Warriors were much deeper.




Dennis Rodman was 34-36 years old alongside Jordan - he didn't make ANY all-defensive teams in 1997 or 1998.. He averaged 4/8 for the entire 1997 playoffs and wasn't even a starter in the 1998 playoffs..

Ron Harper was an ordinary 7 ppg role player that EVERY TEAM HAS - ditto Kukocs, who was a 12 ppg role player that played no defense.. These are guys that EVERY team has.

Btw, saying you'd take Kukoc over Love is ludicrous - Kukoc career high is 18/5 as a 1st option in 1999 (when MJ and Pip had left), compared to Love's 26/13 and All-NBA status... Don't blame Love because Lebron craters his stats - Lebron does that to ALL pf's - just look at Bosh.. The historical facts are clear-cut.



You're crazy, but it doesn't matter, because all those guys are marginal role players that EVERY team has..

So it's dumb to say "MJ's team had Kerr, Kukoc, and Harper" because every team has marginal players like this.



Coming back from 3-1 is less impressive than winning in 6 or less every time and NOT ever needing a 7th game.



Jordan's worst Finals should be compared to Lebron's worst..

Lebron's worst was 17 ppg in 2011, and 22 ppg on 35% in 2007... These stats are far worse than Jordan's 27 ppg on 42% in 1996 Finals.

Most importantly, Jordan's stats were EXCEPTIONAL compared to everyone else in the series - for example, Pippen averaged 15 ppg on 34% (worst 2nd option performance ever).. Otoh, Wade averaged 27 ppg in 2011 Finals - so Jordan's 1996 Finals is WORLDS better than Lebron's 2007 or 2011 Finals.

Point is that pippen is a versatile piece to have, and except he's a better offensive player. Also, Pippen's defense was also pretty damn good.

Dennis Rodman was averaging like 15 and 16 rebounds during his Bulls years. He's a terrific role player and one of the better defenders of all time probably. Rodman still >>>> Tristan Thompson

Ron Harper averaged over 20 points four times and over 18 another few times. He averaged 20 points just before he went to the bulls. Much more versatile scorer than JR Smith, who has never averaged 20 points a game. Harper could do things for himself, he's greater than SHump, JR, Delly, Dahntay Jones ... etc.

Kukoc got 13 points per game on 49% shooting from the field during the regular season, but he had a poor playoffs shooting 10% worse. I'll concede that one, but he's still a solid piece. Yeah, Love has been shafted, but when he was the second option before kyrie got back, he still only shot 41% from the field. He was 19.2 and 9.9 rebounds though, so still good.

Dwade averaged 13.5 points during the 2013 finals. He was pretty damn inconsistent after 2011. Give me pippen.


As for MJ's finals performance, yeah, still way better than LeBron's worst.

[Meticode]

The whole thing with Irving's defense has always been effort and making the right choice on screens in regards to fighting over them or cutting under them. If he's 100% engaged on defense he can be an average defender where it doesn't hurt the Cavs. Love? I don't think it's a question of effort because he's usually getting burned on pick-and-rolls and looks totally lost out there sometimes.

[3ball]

Ron Harper averaged over 20 points four times and over 18 another few times.

You're forgetting that Ron Harper averaged 7 ppg in 1995 season BEFORE Jordan came back for the last 17 games.

So Harper was already washed up BEFORE Jordan got there.. nice try tho

Dennis Rodman was averaging like 15 and 16 rebounds during his Bulls years.

Rodman averaged 8.3 rebounds during entire 1997 playoffs and the same in 1998 Finals... He wasn't even a starter during 1998 playoffs.

1996 was his last good year and productive playoffs.. By 1997 and 1998, he was the same washed up garbage that he was in 1999 with the Lakers, but no one noticed because "da Bulls" were 3-peating.

He's a terrific role player and [COLOR="Red"]one of the better defenders of all time[/COLOR] probably. Rodman still >>>> Tristan Thompson

He didn't make ANY all-defensive teams in 1997 or 1998, so your claim about his goat defense doesn't apply to his time alongside Jordan..

Again, Rodman's last productive playoff year was 1996.

[COLOR="Red"]Dwade averaged 13.5 points during the 2013 finals.
[/COLOR]

Your stats are wrong - Wade averaged 20 ppg in 2013 Finals.

More importantly, Wade averaged 20 ppg on 48% during 2011-2014 playoffs, compared to Pippen's 17 ppg on 40% in 1996-1998 playoffs... Pippen was AIDS during the 2nd three-peat.

[nineiron]

.
[COLOR="Navy"]KYRIE[COLOR="White"]Nl[/COLOR] 2016 FINALS[/COLOR]:[COLOR="White"].[/COLOR] 27 ppg on 47%
[COLOR="DarkGreen"]D WADE 2012 FINALS[/COLOR]:[COLOR="White"].[/COLOR] 22 ppg on 48%
[COLOR="DarkGreen"]D WADE 2013 FINALS[/COLOR]:[COLOR="White"].[/COLOR] 20 ppg on 48%

[COLOR="DarkRed"]PIPPEN[COLOR="White"].[/COLOR] 1996 FINALS[/COLOR]:[COLOR="White"].[/COLOR] 15 ppg on 34%
[COLOR="DarkRed"]PIPPEN[COLOR="White"].[/COLOR] 1998 FINALS[/COLOR]:[COLOR="White"].[/COLOR] 15 ppg on 41%


Jordan won with less, alot less

no doubt.

Wade > Pippen
Kyrie > Pippen
Ray Allen > Pippen

[J Shuttlesworth]

Did you guys actually watch the finals, or even the third round? You do realize that what made the Cavs/thunder successful against Curry is switching on PnR's and not relying on one player covering Curry, right? That's not even knocking Kyrie's defense, but saying he shut down Curry is a very simplistic way of viewing things, and more of a box score mentality. Cavs won because TT was able to successfully stay with Curry. Kyrie is nowhere near the defensive level of Pippen, come on 3ball. You're also ignoring that Pippen is a better passer, playmaker, rebounder, etc. Pippen is the GOAT defender and also put up about 21/8/6 with GOAT defense during the Bulls 3peat. Without Pippen, MJ isn't winning a single championship.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Except...Pippen's defense and playmaking skills were the best of the group.

Well Pippen was a better facilitator than Wade, but Wade might technically be the better playmaker depending on your definition.

Whatever the case, another half baked CONTEXT-LESS thread from 3ball.

[NBAGOAT]

help is relative. Has 3ball ever mentioned how little help Malone got in 1998? Hornacek and Stockton's numbers make Pippen's and Kukoc's look great. Westbrook scored 27ppg in 2012. The Spurs and Warriors had far deeper benches than the Sonics and had comparable starting lineups too.

[3ball]

Except...Pippen's defense and playmaking skills were the best of the group.

Well Pippen was a better facilitator than Wade, but Wade might technically be the better playmaker depending on your definition.

Pippen wasn't the type to break his man down, penetrate the lane and toss a DIME to someone, so Kyrie and Wade were better playmakers, FAR better ballhandlers and both averaged more assists.

Pippen's lack of breakdown ability is why Jordan led the Bulls in passing - he led the Bulls in assist percentage for both 3-peats, so he assisted on the highest proportion of teammates field goals.

Btw, how much context do you need to compare Kyrie's 27 ppg and lockdown defense on Curry, to Pippen's 15 ppg on 34%, while letting Schrempf get his normal stats?..

The point is that Lebron never won with his 2nd option playing that poorly, so Jordan won with less.. Pippen's 1996 Finals was the worst ever for a 2nd option on a winning team.

Btw, Kyrie locked down Kyrie more than Pippen ever locked down another superstar - infact, Pippen has NEVER locked down another superstar in the playoffs.

[NBAGOAT]

Pippen wasn't the type to break his man down, penetrate the lane and toss a DIME to someone, so Kyrie and Wade were better playmakers, FAR better ballhandlers and both averaged more assists.

Pippen's lack of breakdown ability is why Jordan led the Bulls in passing - he led the Bulls in assist percentage for both 3-peats, so he assisted on the highest proportion of teammates field goals.

Btw, how much context do you need to compare Kyrie's 27 ppg and lockdown defense on Curry, to Pippen's 15 ppg on 34%, while letting Schrempf get his normal stats?..

The point is that Lebron never won with his 2nd option playing that poorly, so Jordan won with less.. Pippen's 1996 Finals was the worst ever for a 2nd option on a winning team.

Btw, Kyrie locked down Kyrie more than Pippen ever locked down another superstar - infact, Pippen has NEVER locked down another superstar in the playoffs.

[HylianNightmare]

Cry more

[Smoke117]

Those two series show that Jordan won with less than Lebron ever did - Lebron never won with a 2nd option playing as horrible as Pippen did.

Lebron won in 2016 with Kyrie playing better offense and defense than Pippen ever did, while being the superior passer.

He won in 2012 and 2013 with Wade providing far superior offense and equal playmaking to Pippen, and also a 10-time all-star as his 3rd option and the second-best shooter ever as his 4th option.

Btw, this isn't just my opinion - the 538 rankings of supporting cast says Jordan won with weaker supporting casts in 1991 and 1993 than Lebron's 2012 and 2013 casts.

It's impossible to take you seriously. The funniest thing about this is that in 98 was when Pippen was being praised everywhere for his defense and when Phil called him "a one man wrecking crew" because of the way he was dismantling the Jazz offense. Nice job cherry picking a series where he was injured the last 2 games. In 96 he led the playoffs in drating and defensive win shares...but he's never played as good as defense as Kyrie did in the finals...jesus christ you're pathetic The difference in impact defensively is so huge that your comment up there just completely exposes you as the biased jordan dick sucker that you are.

[ShawkFactory]

Who even cares, Lebron in these last finals was better than Jordan in any of 96-98.

[90sgoat]

Ok a top 5 player in the 90s is worse than a top 20 player now, we all know it was a watered down era, no need to go on about it bro

Pippen was never top 5 in the league.

That's just stupid, second 3peat:

Shaq
Hakeem
Malone
Payton
Penny
Ewing
Miller

I could go on, not close to top 5 or top 10.

[RedBlackAttack]

Did you guys actually watch the finals, or even the third round? You do realize that what made the Cavs/thunder successful against Curry is switching on PnR's and not relying on one player covering Curry, right? That's not even knocking Kyrie's defense, but saying he shut down Curry is a very simplistic way of viewing things, and more of a box score mentality. Cavs won because TT was able to successfully stay with Curry. Kyrie is nowhere near the defensive level of Pippen, come on 3ball. You're also ignoring that Pippen is a better passer, playmaker, rebounder, etc. Pippen is the GOAT defender and also put up about 21/8/6 with GOAT defense during the Bulls 3peat. Without Pippen, MJ isn't winning a single championship.

Who on God's green earth said he was on a level with Pippen defensively?

That's a strawman argument. What happened was that we were discussing Kyrie's hugely important offensive role in this series and someone inevitably came in with the "what about his terrible defense" talking point that seems to stick to certain guys regardless of how they play. Irving's defense was pretty good for most of this series. No, he wasn't Kawhi Leonard out there, but he played his part and did it consistently well enough for the Cavs to -- as a team -- virtually shut down the Warriors in the most critical moments of the series.

In order to stop that Warriors attack, which relies so much on confusing the defense with screens all over the floor, all five guys have to be connected. You can't have a weak link or they'll make a living off of exploiting it.

And, Kyrie was Steph's primary defender on most possessions. As in, that's the way the play started. Yes, the Cavs were doing a lot of switching so any screen action meant he'd switch onto someoe else, but it's not like they were hiding Kyrie somewhere else and hoping that would keep him away from Steph the way the Warriors were playing on the other end with Curry guarding Shump or RJ.

So, the "net negative" argument that people have been using for Kyrie since he came into the league simply doesn't apply in these playoffs and especially in The Finals. Kyrie is such an incredible offensive weapon, he only has to be an average defender to have a huge impact. He doesn't have to be Scottie Pippen.

I will also point out that he averaged almost as many steals as turnovers in the series. Steals aren't necessarily a great indicator of solid defense because a lot of guys gamble for them and end up out of position. That wasn't the case for the most part for Kyrie and him getting out in transition off of turnovers was another big factor down the stretch of the series.

There is just no denying his impact on the Cavs' title. LeBron was awesome in this series. I never understood why acknowledging one meant diminishing another, whether it was Jordan/Pippen, James/Wade or now LBJ/Kyrie.

You can have two great performances simultaneously on the same team.

[3ball]

what superstar did Pippen ever lock down as the primary defender

otoh, Curry's offense was "Jordan-level" in the regular season, and Kyrie turned that into 22 ppg on 40% in the Finals (Wizards' Jordan)