How jordan did with a ''lebron type'' supporting cast

[Dragonyeuw]

I was really just arguing the fact about the West being that much better when the conference disparity wasn't that big that year sos wise.

Unless you're saying that the Mavs, Suns, Spurs, and Rockets weren't better than just about any east team, I'm not sure what we're arguing. The top tier talent was on a different level.

[TheWinningFam]

Boozer was 15 and 11 on 57 TS%. Big Z was on the squad with 17 and 9. This was in 2004. Neither one of those players were worse just because their PPG were lower. Big Z was top 5 center at this point, it's relative to competition at the time and the reality is Lebron had an all-star at this side from the beginning. MJ need more than a 23 ppg Woolridge to beat the Buck and Celtics, don't you think?

Lebron won 16 more games with a 16-65 team

Jordan's only won 8 more games with a 25-57 team when he was drafted and the team only lost 5 more in his absence despite ''tougher competition'' Let that sink in.

[NBAGOAT]

Unless you're saying that the Mavs, Suns, Spurs, and Rockets weren't better than just about any east team, I'm not sure what we're arguing. The top tier talent was on a different level.

I say only suns and spurs but that's for another debate. You're looking at conference disparity by just looking at the top tier teams which is more useful during the playoffs but not everything. During the RS, those 20-25 win teams matter just as much which people seem to ignore. I'm guessing then you have np conceding the West was better than the East every year in the 90's too even if some years the East definitely had a tougher SOS.

[3ball]

Lebron won more regular season games because he made his teammates better

It's statistical fact that Lebron's teammates have SIGNIFICANTLY lower stats alongside him, especially key teammates.

Otoh, Jordan's teammates played to 100% capacity alongside him, compared to their stats without him.

Lebron won more regular season games because he made his teammates better

[COLOR="DarkRed"]Lebron lowers his teammates PPG and APG.

Specifically, he turns them into play-finishers by lowering their APG (playmaking) and increasing their assisted rate (play-finishing):[/COLOR]



[COLOR="White"]................................................[/COLOR]APG, ASSIST %[COLOR="White"].......[/COLOR] ASSISTED RATE

Wade [COLOR="Navy"]before[/COLOR] Lebron (04'-10'):[COLOR="White"].....[/COLOR] 6.6, 34.8%[COLOR="White"]..................[/COLOR]29.2% [COLOR="DarkGreen"]<---- links to nba.com data[/COLOR]
Wade [COLOR="DarkRed"]with[/COLOR][COLOR="White"]...[/COLOR] Lebron (11'-14'):[COLOR="white"].....[/COLOR] 4.7, 25.5%[COLOR="white"]..................[/COLOR]40.3%

Irving [COLOR="Navy"]before[/COLOR] Lebron (12'-14'):[COLOR="white"]....[/COLOR] 5.8, 33.2%[COLOR="white"]..................[/COLOR]31.9%
Irving [COLOR="DarkRed"]with[/COLOR][COLOR="white"]...[/COLOR] Lebron[COLOR="white"]..[/COLOR] (2015):[COLOR="white"].....[/COLOR] 5.0, 25.6%[COLOR="white"]..................[/COLOR]32.7%

Bosh [COLOR="Navy"]before[/COLOR] Lebron (04'-10'):[COLOR="white"]......[/COLOR] 2.2, 10.5%[COLOR="white"]..................[/COLOR]55.8%
Bosh [COLOR="DarkRed"]with[/COLOR][COLOR="white"]...[/COLOR] Lebron (11'-14'):[COLOR="white"]......[/COLOR] 1.6, 8.0%[COLOR="white"] ...................[/COLOR]71.6%

Love [COLOR="Navy"]before[/COLOR] Lebron (09'-14'):[COLOR="white"]......[/COLOR] 2.5, 13.0%[COLOR="white"]..................[/COLOR]62.7%
Love [COLOR="DarkRed"]with[/COLOR] [COLOR="White"]...[/COLOR]Lebron (15'-16'):[COLOR="white"]......[/COLOR] 2.3, 11.4%[COLOR="white"]..................[/COLOR]80.0%

Mo Will [COLOR="Navy"]before[/COLOR] Lebron (05'-08'):[COLOR="White"]..[/COLOR] 5.7, 30.2%[COLOR="white"]..................[/COLOR]39.2%
Mo Will [COLOR="DarkRed"]with[/COLOR]... Lebron (09'-10'):[COLOR="white"]..[/COLOR] 4.6, 22.3%[COLOR="white"]..................[/COLOR]47.6%


FYI...

Pippen [COLOR="DarkRed"]with[/COLOR][COLOR="white"]...[/COLOR] Jordan 91'-93':[COLOR="White"]......[/COLOR] 6.5, 24.5%
Pippen [COLOR="Navy"]w/out[/COLOR] Jordan 94'-95':[COLOR="white"]......[/COLOR] 5.4, 23.7%
Pippen [COLOR="DarkRed"]with[/COLOR][COLOR="White"]...[/COLOR] Jordan 96'-98':[COLOR="white"]......[/COLOR] 5.8, 25.1%

Lebron won [COLOR="Red"]in a slower paced era[/COLOR]

[COLOR="Blue"]Jordan won 3 rings from 1996-1998 when pace and PPG was lower than today's game.[/COLOR]

[COLOR="Red"]Rooki[/COLOR]e Jordan's only won 8 more games with a 25-57 team

Again, I'll use the same statistics that prove Lebron's cast was better:

Jordan's rookie stats were FAR better than Lebron's rookie stats, yet Lebron still won the same number of games, which means his supporting cast was better and competition was worse..

This is actually thread worthy - Lebron's individual stats are equal or worse than Jordan's for his entire career, yet he frequently won more regular season games, which proves his supporting cast was better and he played weaker competition.. Take this L

[Hey Yo]

Boozer was 15 and 11 on 57 TS%. Big Z was on the squad with 17 and 9. This was in 2004. Neither one of those players were worse just because their PPG were lower. Big Z was top 5 center at this point, it's relative to competition at the time and the reality is Lebron had an all-star at this side from the beginning. MJ need more than a 23 ppg Woolridge to beat the Buck and Celtics, don't you think?

MJ was getting more help/production. 16-10 from his Center, Johnson. Plus 21.6ppg from Dailey, plus Woolridge's 23ppg.

Then add 21yr old MJ played for 3yrs under UNC's legendary coach Dean Smith while 19yr old rookie James played for a coach who came from the small town of East Liverpool, Ohio.

C'mon....it's not even close who had more productive teammates early on.

[Dragonyeuw]

Lebron won 16 more games with a 16-65 team

Jordan's only won 8 more games with a 25-57 team when he was drafted and the team only lost 5 more in his absence despite ''tougher competition'' Let that sink in.

Top east records in 84/85:

63-19 Celtics
59-23 Bucks
58-24 Sixers

Top east records in 2003-2004:

61-21 Pacers
54-28 Pistons
47- 35 Nets

80's east >>>>> 00's east

[TheWinningFam]

It's statistical fact that Lebron's teammates have SIGNIFICANTLY lower stats alongside him, especially key teammates.

Otoh, Jordan's teammates played to 100% capacity alongside him, compared to their stats without him.




[COLOR="DarkRed"]Lebron lowers his teammates PPG and APG.

Specifically, he turns them into play-finishers by lowering their APG (playmaking) and increasing their assisted rate (play-finishing):[/COLOR]



[COLOR="White"]................................................[/COLOR]APG, ASSIST %[COLOR="White"].......[/COLOR] ASSISTED RATE

Wade [COLOR="Navy"]before[/COLOR] Lebron (04'-10'):[COLOR="White"].....[/COLOR] 6.6, 34.8%[COLOR="White"]..................[/COLOR]29.2% [COLOR="DarkGreen"]<---- links to nba.com data[/COLOR]
Wade [COLOR="DarkRed"]with[/COLOR][COLOR="White"]...[/COLOR] Lebron (11'-14'):[COLOR="white"].....[/COLOR] 4.7, 25.5%[COLOR="white"]..................[/COLOR]40.3%

Irving [COLOR="Navy"]before[/COLOR] Lebron (12'-14'):[COLOR="white"]....[/COLOR] 5.8, 33.2%[COLOR="white"]..................[/COLOR]31.9%
Irving [COLOR="DarkRed"]with[/COLOR][COLOR="white"]...[/COLOR] Lebron[COLOR="white"]..[/COLOR] (2015):[COLOR="white"].....[/COLOR] 5.0, 25.6%[COLOR="white"]..................[/COLOR]32.7%

Bosh [COLOR="Navy"]before[/COLOR] Lebron (04'-10'):[COLOR="white"]......[/COLOR] 2.2, 10.5%[COLOR="white"]..................[/COLOR]55.8%
Bosh [COLOR="DarkRed"]with[/COLOR][COLOR="white"]...[/COLOR] Lebron (11'-14'):[COLOR="white"]......[/COLOR] 1.6, 8.0%[COLOR="white"] ...................[/COLOR]71.6%

Love [COLOR="Navy"]before[/COLOR] Lebron (09'-14'):[COLOR="white"]......[/COLOR] 2.5, 13.0%[COLOR="white"]..................[/COLOR]62.7%
Love [COLOR="DarkRed"]with[/COLOR] [COLOR="White"]...[/COLOR]Lebron (15'-16'):[COLOR="white"]......[/COLOR] 2.3, 11.4%[COLOR="white"]..................[/COLOR]80.0%

Mo Will [COLOR="Navy"]before[/COLOR] Lebron (05'-08'):[COLOR="White"]..[/COLOR] 5.7, 30.2%[COLOR="white"]..................[/COLOR]39.2%
Mo Will [COLOR="DarkRed"]with[/COLOR]... Lebron (09'-10'):[COLOR="white"]..[/COLOR] 4.6, 22.3%[COLOR="white"]..................[/COLOR]47.6%


FYI...

Pippen [COLOR="DarkRed"]with[/COLOR][COLOR="white"]...[/COLOR] Jordan 91'-93':[COLOR="White"]......[/COLOR] 6.5, 24.5%
Pippen [COLOR="Navy"]w/out[/COLOR] Jordan 94'-95':[COLOR="white"]......[/COLOR] 5.4, 23.7%
Pippen [COLOR="DarkRed"]with[/COLOR][COLOR="White"]...[/COLOR] Jordan 96'-98':[COLOR="white"]......[/COLOR] 5.8, 25.1%




[COLOR="Blue"]Jordan won 3 rings from 1996-1998 when pace and PPG was lower than today's game.[/COLOR]




Again, I'll use the same statistics that prove Lebron's cast was better:

Jordan's rookie stats were FAR better than Lebron's rookie stats, yet Lebron still won the same number of games, which means his supporting cast was better and competition was worse..

This is actually thread worthy - Lebron's individual stats are equal or worse than Jordan's for his entire career, yet he frequently won more regular season games, which proves his supporting cast was better and he played weaker competition.. Take this L

Lebron forced teams to double and triple team him, which lead to his teammates assisted rates to skyrocket, lebron being the number 1 option creates on his own better than jordan he's the GOAT isolation,Passer and double/triple teamed scorer. while being double and triple teamed and has a lower assisted ratio AND opens it up for everyone to get easy open looks, thus making everybody better

Lebron won 16 more games with a 16-65 team

Jordan's only won 8 more games with a 25-57 team when he was drafted and the team only lost 5 more in his absence despite ''tougher competition'' Let that sink in. Hold this L

[TheWinningFam]

Top east records in 84/85:

63-19 Celtics
59-23 Bucks
58-24 Sixers

Top east records in 2003-2004:

61-21 Pacers
54-28 Pistons
47- 35 Nets

80's east >>>>> 00's east

Lebron won 16 more games with a 16-65 team in a slower paced era

Jordan's only won 8 more games in a faster paced era with a 25-57 team when he was drafted and the team only lost 5 more in his absence despite ''tougher competition'' Let that sink in.

[Dragonyeuw]

I say only suns and spurs but that's for another debate. You're looking at conference disparity by just looking at the top tier teams which is more useful during the playoffs but not everything. During the RS, those 20-25 win teams matter just as much which people seem to ignore. I'm guessing then you have np conceding the West was better than the East every year in the 90's too even if some years the East definitely had a tougher SOS.

Of course it's about top tier teams. Facing Spurs, Mavs, Suns, Rockets, and Jazz 4 times a year, is going to impact you more than Detroit, Toronto, and New Jersey.

I'd like your argument for 90's west> 90's east, at least anywhere near the discrepancy of 00's west> east.

[Dragonyeuw]

MJ was getting more help/production. 16-10 from his Center, Johnson plus 21.6ppg from Dailey, plus Woolridge's 23ppg.

Then add 21yr old MJ played for 3yrs under UNC's legendary coach Dean Smith while 19yr old rookie James played for a coach who came from the small town of East Liverpool, Ohio.

C'mon....it's not even close who had more productive teammates early on.

Who was 16 and 10 on the 84-85 Bulls? Dailey was 16.0 ppg. Where are you getting these numbers from?

[Dragonyeuw]

Lebron won 16 more games with a 16-65 team in a slower paced era

Jordan's only won 8 more games in a faster paced era with a 25-57 team when he was drafted and the team only lost 5 more in his absence despite ''tougher competition'' Let that sink in.

Top east records in 84/85:

63-19 Celtics
59-23 Bucks
58-24 Sixers

Top east records in 2003-2004:

61-21 Pacers
54-28 Pistons
47- 35 Nets

80's east >>>>> 00's east

Not sinking in, yet?

[NBAGOAT]

Of course it's about top tier teams. Facing Spurs, Mavs, Suns, Rockets, and Jazz 4 times a year, is going to impact you more than Detroit, Toronto, and New Jersey.

I'd like your argument for 90's west> 90's east, at least anywhere near the discrepancy of 00's west> east.

never said the discrepancy was close, just that the West was better pretty much every year since it had more top tier teams. Facing those teams 4 times a year won't affect your RS record any different than facing the grizzlies 4 times a year.

[TheWinningFam]

Top east records in 84/85:

63-19 Celtics
59-23 Bucks
58-24 Sixers

Top east records in 2003-2004:

61-21 Pacers
54-28 Pistons
47- 35 Nets

80's east >>>>> 00's east

Not sinking in, yet?

Lebron won 16 more games with a 16-65 team in a slower paced era which made it harder to win.

Jordan's only won 8 more games in a faster paced era with a 25-57 team when he was drafted and the team only lost 5 more in his absence despite ''tougher competition'' If the competition was better, why did they only lose 5 more games without him? Let that sink in.

[Hey Yo]

Who was 16 and 10 on the 84-85 Bulls? Dailey was 16.0 ppg. Where are you getting these numbers from?

My fault....was accidentlly looking at Per 36mins.

[Dragonyeuw]

never said the discrepancy was close, just that the West was better pretty much every year since it had more top tier teams.

The 90's east could be argued as better at different parts of the decade, the west in others, no huge discrepancies either way. The west has been CONSISTENTLY better throughout Lebron's career, in certain years with HUGE discrepancies at the top. This year alone, GS, Spurs,Thunder, and Clippers could easily be argued as better than the East's top teams after Cleveland. There may be more 'parity' between 4-8 in the east, but no-one asides from Cleveland is a threat to the top 4 teams in the west.