Which stage of their careers did Bron have worse cast or play in tougher conf than MJ

[guy]

I'm with you for the most part. Jordan's cast is criminally overrated on this board. Especially the first 3 rings. Both Jordan and Lebron had bad casts in the beginning, and Lebron had the better casts through the majority of their careers.

However, Lebron's cast in 2007 was probably worse than any cast Jordan went to the finals with.

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It's revisionist history. People don't remember that Jordan was getting a lot of the same "he doesn't have enough help", "someone else needs to step up", "he's carrying his team" type discussion from the media that's Lebron getting, and that was even while they were winning titles. 96 was the only year I can think of where there wasn't a lot of that. Whether or not that was deserved, in 20-30 years people will forget this for Lebron as well when all they really pay attention to is the big names around him for a large portion of his career.

[3ball]

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[COLOR="Blue"]Bigger Overachievement[/COLOR]: Jordan's 1989 Playoff Run vs. Lebron's 2007


[COLOR="DarkRed"]Jordan's Bulls were 47-25 and the 6 seed.[/COLOR]
[COLOR="Navy"]Lebron's Cavs were 50-32 and the 2 seed.[/COLOR]


[COLOR="DarkRed"]1st Round Jordan[/COLOR]: CLE...(#3 seed, 57-25, #2 ranked defense... 40.0.. 6.0.. 8.1.. 51.8% FG)
[COLOR="Navy"]1st Round Lebron[/COLOR]: WSH (#7 seed, 41-41, #28 ranked defense.. 27.0.. 8.5.. 7.5.. 42.5% FG)

[COLOR="DarkRed"]2nd Round Jordan[/COLOR]: NYK (#2 seed, 52-30, #10 ranked defense... 35.5.. 9.5.. 8.3.. 55.0% FG)
[COLOR="Navy"]2nd Round Lebron[/COLOR]: NJN (#6 seed, 41-41, #15 ranked defense... 24.7.. 7.3.. 8.5.. 42.3% FG)

[COLOR="DarkRed"]Conf. Finals Jordan[/COLOR]: DET (#1 seed, 62-30, #3 ranked defense... 30.0.. 5.5.. 6.5.. 46.0% FG)
[COLOR="Navy"]Conf. Finals Lebron[/COLOR]: DET (#1 seed, 53-29, #7 ranked defense... 25.7.. 9.1.. 8.5.. 44.9% FG)


NO COMPARISON..

[3ball]

Lebron's cast in 2007 was probably [COLOR="DarkRed"]worse than any cast that Jordan went to the finals with.[/COLOR]

But Lebron's CONFERENCE was far far weaker than Jordan ever played in, as proven by the stats - Lebron was able to make the 2007 Finals by averaging only 24 ppg on 42% in ECSF, and 25 ppg on 45% in ECF, which would be the worst stats of Jordan's playoff career and would get him out of the 1st round, let alone make the damn Finals.

Just compare Jordan's 1989 run to Lebron's 2007 run, as shown in the previous post above.. Jordan's run was clearly far more impressive.

Lebron's cast in 2007 was probably worse than [COLOR="DarkRed"]any cast that Jordan went to the finals with.[/COLOR]

True, but that's due to a weaker conference, as shown above.

More importantly, the 538 rankings show that Jordan WON championships in 1991 and 1993 with weaker casts than Lebron ever won with.. And this is common knowledge, which is why Jordan's playoff and Finals stats during his 1st three-peat are GOAT, and unmatched by anyone.

[ClipperRevival]

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[COLOR="Blue"]Bigger Overachievement[/COLOR]: Jordan's 1989 Playoff Run vs. Lebron's 2007


[COLOR="DarkRed"]Jordan's Bulls were 47-25 and the 6 seed.[/COLOR]
[COLOR="Navy"]Lebron's Cavs were 50-32 and the 2 seed.[/COLOR]


[COLOR="DarkRed"]1st Round Jordan[/COLOR]: CLE...(#3 seed, 57-25, #2 ranked defense... 40.0.. 6.0.. 8.1.. 51.8% FG)
[COLOR="Navy"]1st Round Lebron[/COLOR]: WSH (#7 seed, 41-41, #28 ranked defense.. 27.0.. 8.5.. 7.5.. 42.5% FG)

[COLOR="DarkRed"]2nd Round Jordan[/COLOR]: NYK (#2 seed, 52-30, #10 ranked defense... 35.5.. 9.5.. 8.3.. 55.0% FG)
[COLOR="Navy"]2nd Round Lebron[/COLOR]: NJN (#6 seed, 41-41, #15 ranked defense... 24.7.. 7.3.. 8.5.. 42.3% FG)

[COLOR="DarkRed"]Conf. Finals Jordan[/COLOR]: DET (#1 seed, 62-30, #3 ranked defense... 30.0.. 5.5.. 6.5.. 46.0% FG)
[COLOR="Navy"]Conf. Finals Lebron[/COLOR]: DET (#1 seed, 53-29, #7 ranked defense... 25.7.. 9.1.. 8.5.. 44.9% FG)


NO COMPARISON..

MJ's 1988-89 playoff run is very underrated when you consider his team's seeding (6) and the teams he faced (1, 2 and 3). He pretty much did all he could humanly do given his supporting cast. Detroit was just way too balanced and good for the Bulls.

[3ball]

MJ's 1988-89 playoff run is very underrated when you consider his team's seeding (6) and the teams he faced (1, 2 and 3). He pretty much did all he could humanly do given his supporting cast. Detroit was just way too balanced and good for the Bulls.

Indeed, the 538 rankings show that Jordan WON RINGS with the weaker casts than Lebron ever won with, and his 1989 run that you reference was the biggest carry-job of a lottery roster ever.

In 1989, the 47-win Bulls would've missed the 45-win playoff cut without Jordan's 33/8/8.. So that team was a LOTTERY roster without Jordan and headed nowhere, yet Jordan led them to 6 games with the champion Pistons in ECF, and started a 3-peat just a year later (exact same roster)..

[COLOR="DarkRed"]That's the biggest impact on a lottery team.[/COLOR]
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[Hey Yo]

James 2015 Finals is a bigger overachievement than MJ's 89 postseason.

[3ball]

James 2015 Finals is a bigger overachievement than MJ's 89 postseason.

Indeed, both guys took the champs 6 games with lottery rosters..

Except Jordan led his lottery roster ALL SEASON, whereas Lebron only had a lottery roster in the Finals (Kyrie was healthy in ECF)... Therefore, Jordan's carry-job is far superior, as usual..

[ClipperRevival]

MJ's 1988-89 playoff stats (17 games):

34.8 PPG, 29.9 PER, .510%, 7.0 RPG, 7.6 APG, 2.5 SPG, 4.0 TOV


LeBron's 2014-15 playoff stats (20 games):

30.1 PPG, 25.3 PER, .417%, 11.3 RPG, 8.5 APG, 1.7 SPG, 4.1 TOV

[Hey Yo]

Indeed, both guys took the champs 6 games with lottery rosters..

Except Jordan led his lottery roster ALL SEASON, whereas Lebron only had a lottery roster in the Finals (Kyrie was healthy in ECF)... Therefore, Jordan's carry-job is far superior, as usual..

Kyrie only played 2 games in the ECF against the 60 win #1 seed home court Hawks and avg. 13/3/5 which led to the LeBron sweep.

James 2015 carry-job > 89 MJ

[ClipperRevival]

It's funny how we are comparing MJ's 1988-89 season to LeBron's 2014-15 season.

For MJ, the Pistons had to devise the "Jordan Rules" starting in game 4 after MJ's Bulls went up 2-1 against the Pistons.

On the flipside, the Warriors thought they didn't even need to double LeBron, single covering him about 80% of the time.

These are just simple facts. One guy warranted GOAT level attention from the D while the other saw single coverage most of the time.

[jayfan]

James 2015 Finals is a bigger overachievement than MJ's 89 postseason.

Getting to the finals or pushing the finals to 6 games?

Not sure I'd agree with either.


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[SamuraiSWISH]

Getting to the finals or pushing the finals to 6 games?

Not sure I'd agree with either.


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Seriously. Played probably the weakest 60 win team I've ever seen, the '15 Hawks.

[3ball]

For MJ, the Pistons had to devise the "Jordan Rules" starting in game 4 after MJ's Bulls went up 2-1 against the Pistons.

The Pistons did NOT start the Jordan Rules midway through the 1989 series:

Sports Illustrated

"On the afternoon of April 3, 1988, Jordan embarrassed Detroit by scoring 59 points in a nationally televised game that Chicago won 112-110. That wasn’t the first time Jordan had worn out the Pistons—he had gone for 49, 47, 61 and 49 against them during various games in previous seasons. [COLOR="Red"]But after the 59-point effort, Detroit coach Chuck Daly had seen enough. “We made up our minds right then and there that Michael Jordan was not going to beat us by himself again,” says Daly. “We had to commit to a total team concept to get it done.[/COLOR]”

http://ballislife.com/4-3-88-michael...d-boy-pistons/

It makes a lot more sense that the "Jordan Rules" were something that was DEVELOPED OVER TIME, rather than some gimmick created midway through a series..

The Jordan Rules are the reason MJ averaged only 27 ppg vs. the Pistons in 1988 Playoffs, after averaging 42 ppg up until that point.. GRADUALLY, Jordan got better and better against the Jordan Rules - by 1990, he was crushing the "rules" and would've defeated the Pistons that year if not for Pippen's GOAT choke (2 pts, 1-10 in Game 7).

[ClipperRevival]

[QUOTE=3ball]The Pistons did NOT start the Jordan Rules midway through the 1989 series:

Sports Illustrated

[INDENT][INDENT]"[SIZE="3"][I]On the afternoon of April 3, 1988, Jordan embarrassed Detroit by scoring 59 points in a nationally televised game that Chicago won 112-110. That wasn

[Dragonyeuw]

[QUOTE=3ball]The Pistons did NOT start the Jordan Rules midway through the 1989 series:

Sports Illustrated

[INDENT][INDENT]"[SIZE="3"][I]On the afternoon of April 3, 1988, Jordan embarrassed Detroit by scoring 59 points in a nationally televised game that Chicago won 112-110. That wasn