Bill Russel Is Greater Than Jordan, And Tim Duncan Is Greater Than Shaq

[Lebron23]

and due to 6 MVPs (most of ANY player EVER)
and due to championships in multiple "eras"
and due to MUCH MUCH MUCH tougher competition.

Completely agree Kareem is the Greatest Center of all time, and He kick the ass of the Boston Celtics in the 1985 NBA Finals. ( Oldest NBA Finals MVP)

[dejordan]

and due to 6 MVPs (most of ANY player EVER)
and due to championships in multiple "eras"
and due to MUCH MUCH MUCH tougher competition.

as a young celts fan in the 80s i was honestly more afraid of kareem than magic or worthy. the first playoffs i watched was 85, and i just had the idea that we couldn't stop kareem when he wanted to score burned into my psyche.

[bleedinpurpleTwo]

as a young celts fan in the 80s i was honestly more afraid of kareem than magic or worthy. the first playoffs i watched was 85, and i just had the idea that we couldn't stop kareem when he wanted to score burned into my psyche.

lol. but I'm sure the years of therapy cured you.


but I know what you mean...If he got the ball within 10-12 feet, that skyhook was virtually unstoppable. and if you doubled-down, he was great at passing it to a cutter.

[gts]

as a young celts fan in the 80s i was honestly more afraid of kareem than magic or worthy. the first playoffs i watched was 85, and i just had the idea that we couldn't stop kareem when he wanted to score burned into my psyche.

that's because you couldn't...lol seriously even at that older age when kareem was hot there was no stopping the sky hook or his little turn around post move... i say him against the spurs in a regular season game in the early 80's and the sky hook was dropping that night. that shot was impossible to stop.... he'd hit the shot and turn to run down court and magic would be yakking at gilmore all the way down court "did you see that? man thats pretty"

[clayton]

Pretty much impossible to compare players from different eras. Different playing stylezzzz. Stats are so overrated.

[gts]

Originally Posted by Poseidon
I can't wait 'til BULLS reads this crap of a thread.

it may be a while he got his ass owned by coach a. in another thread and signed out...

[riseagainst]

Russel is better than greater than Jordan, easily. Averaging 30ppg is easier than averaging 22rpg for the Career of Russel, and 16ppg. On top of that, its not close in regards to Titles.

Tim Duncan is easily greater than Shaq. Here are their career numbers.

Here are Tim Duncan and Shaq's career numbers and accomplishments

Lets take it to the scorecard as it stands right NOW:

titles: Shaq 4, Duncan 3
finals mvps: Shaq 3, duncan 3
season mvps: Shaq 1, Duncan 2
1st team all nba: Shaq 7, Duncan 9
1st team all defense: Shaq 0, Duncan 7 (Shaq only has 3 2nd team all defense!)
Shaq career: 25.9ppg, 11.6 rpg, 2.8apg, 2.8bpg
Duncan Career: 21.8 ppg, 11.9rpg, 3.2apg, 2.4bpg

Now lets discuss the obvious. Shaq has been in the league 5 more years than Duncan, but only has one more title, both even in finals mvps, Duncan with one more season mvp at 2-1. Here is where it gets shocking: Shaq has been in the league over 14+ years, but only 7 first team all nba elections? That a mere 50%! Also, Shaq has never, not even once been voted first team all defense- with only 3, count it 3 total 2ND TEAM all defense selections! Wow! He's a bigger defensive liability than Steve Nash! Even with all this "dominant" scoring, career wise he leads Duncan by only four points in career average! It is obvious that all you who swear by Shaq's dominance have been utterly duped!

Anyone please look at these numbers and prove Shaq is better than Duncan! According to their career numbers and stats, Duncan is already ahead of Shaq, and its not even close! One more title and finals mvp will simply be icing on the cake.

Here are a few additional points.
TD teammates: at best in a 15 and 5 David Robinson in 2003, Tony Parker (good but not great), Manu (inconsistent) Ginobli, Bruce Bowen (could there be more of an offfensive liability in the starting lineup no less), Malik Rose (!), and Stephen Jackson (sometimes clutch, most other times a saga of turnovers and bad shots, and older version of Robert Horry (clutch but very limited), and old Michael Finley (streaky but classy), and Brent Barry (even more streaky)

Shaq's Teammates: Kobe Bryant (wow, could you have a better "sidekick"?), Dwayne Wade (I guess you can!), Penny Hardaway (good enough to be the Lebron of the mid 90s), Derek Fisher (cluth shooter, his jumper took only 1.3 seconds in .4 of game time to win!), a very Spry Robert Horry (how can you have Kobe, Horry, and Fisher on one team? Too much clutchness), etc..

Advantage? Shaq by far. Kobe and Wade together are better than all TD teammates combined.

Coaching? Well, Phil Jackson has won 9 titles, and if that isn't enough, Pat Riley has won 6 titles. Thats a grand total of 15 titles behind Shaq's coaching staffs; Greg Pop (maybe) for Duncan, maybe 4. However its still not that close. When Phil came to the Lakers, he already had 6 titles. When Pop became coach of the Spurs? He'd won 0 (zero), and hadn't even performed well at the college ranks either. So in essence you have Mike Brown coaching TD as rookie (as far as coaching experience).

So again, to sum it up, Shaq had so much more to work with than TD, and has done so much less. If TD wins his 4th (now up 3-0 in the finals), he will be ahead in every other career statistic, accomplishment comfortably at least; some categories he is so far ahead it is embarrassing (to Shaq), like first team all-defense (7-0).

Now that's settled lets review Bill Russel and Jordan's accomplishments:
Bill Russell:
G FG% FG% Rebs RPG Asts APG Pts PPG
963 .440 .561 21,620 22.5 4,100 4.3 14,522 15.1

Michael Jordan:
G FG% 3PFG%FT%Rebs RPG Asts APG Stls Blks Pts PPG
1,072 .497 .327 .835 6,672 6.2 5,633 5.3 2,514 893 32,292 30.1

So thats it. They both played about the same number of games, so who is greater? MJ averaged 30.1ppg, 6.2 rpg, and 5.3apg., Bill Russel averaged 15.1pppg, an whopping 22.5 rebounds a game, and 4.3apg. Let's look at it this way: Jordan averaged about twice as many points, but Russel averaged almost 4 times as many rebounds, and Jordan +1 in assists. So who has the advantage in numbers? Perhaps it is best to think of it in terms of todays game. Kobe Bryant and (previously AI) are 30ppg scorers, but so what? Neither of them have LED their team to titles. 30ppg is not some mythic number that equates to victory. HOWEVER, 22.5 rpg is ASTOUNDING! Can you imagine a big man today averaging 22.5 rpg?!? That in itself and by itself would change the outcome of most games. 30ppg is probably a bit less than 1/3 of points scored in an NBA game. HOWEVER, 22.5rpg is half the rebounds virtually every team averages for an entire game, that's 50% of all team rpg to one man! For MJ equal such a feat, he would had to have averaged somewhere in the range of 50ppg for his career, obviiosly not happening.

Based on these numbers, the edge would naturally go to Bill Russel, but for the sake of arguing further, we'll call it even between the two. Why? Because the next category the numbers are REALLY skewed.

Titles:

Bill Russel: 11
Jordan: 6

Wow. 11? Well that's it. MJ was overmatched from the Start. He would have to start winning titles in 88, and not take time off from work for personal pursuits.

Again, Bill Russel is greater than Michael Jordan, and its much wider a chasm than the one that lays between Tim Duncan (the greater) and Shaq (the lesser). Here are a few instructional tools so we have better understanding of my criteria:

1. In regards to Russel and Jordan, I couldn't use steals or blocks, because these Stats weren't kept until 1969. This works out well for Jordan, because Russell, who averaged 22.5 rpg, was beyond compare in rebounding and defensive positioning, meaning an even more lopsided win for Russell statistically.

2. I don't want to hear about the competition being poor then. Russell consistently went against AND guarded all game long Wilt Chamberlain. WILT CHAMBERLAIN!!! There is a huge difference between playing against someone on another team, and GUARDING someone all night long. In essence, he was Bruce Bowen to Wilt, only he averaged 22.5 rpg and 15.1ppg (and obviously did not shut down Wilt.)

3. Listing Jordan's (or Shaq's) career scoring games WON'T MAKE A DIFFERENCE. Jordan 's career high was 69 points. Obviously a stellar performance. But Bill Russel? Bill Russel's career high was 50rpgs. 50! That is more than 100% of the teams rpg output He also got 49rpgs on a few occasions. Bill Russell's 50rpg is more impressive than even Wilts 100 point game (easily).

4. Anyone who thinks Bill Russel was not the man on the Celtics doesn't know basketball. NO ONE AND I MEAN NO ONE AVERAGES THOSE NUMBERS AND NOT BE "THE MAN."

5. I don't want to hear about Russel having the greatest team and not being fair. And? The Bulls had Jordan, at the time the best in the league and Pippen, the best all around player in the league. Most nights you could hardly tell who was who. Nobody cared that the Lakers had Shaq and Kobe, two superstars. Or that Bird had Mchale and Parish and others. Don't get me started on the Showtime Lakers!

In closing, you indeed heard me correctly. Bill Russel is the GOAT and Tim Duncan is greater than Shaq.

[Freedom Kid7]

I'm not gonna touch on Bill Russell vs. Jordan. You can make a case for either of them, and I love Russell and all, but I can't put him over Jordan. I just can't.

As for Timmy vs. Shaq, I think this has much more of a case. I think both were elite for an incredibly long time (at least ten years) and both have ups and downs regarding who looks better. Shaq was far and a way a more offensively gifted player than Duncan. Duncan was good in the post and all, but Shaq was a frikkin obese wrecking ball in the lane. If you tried to stop him, you'd get wrecked and slammed on. Defensively, Duncan was a million times of a better defender than Shaq. Part of that has to go to the fact Duncan had a better work ethic than Shaq, and the other part has to go to the fact that, well, it's arguable that Duncan should've played center instead of PF. Duncan's post game was a bit more refined whether it be with his bank shot, swim move in the post, or any other standard post-move. Hell, he could hit a jumper every once and a while. Regarding accolades, both have pretty damn similar accolades with I think Shaq maybe having one additional all-star game over Tim, but Tim has an MVP over Shaq (I think Kidd should've gotten it that year, but that's debatable and Shaqattack brought out points to dispute that ). Peak wise it goes to Shaq. Dominance for three years. Prime, while both have similar lengths of primes, I think I might give the edge to Duncan due to his consistency. Granted, I have Shaq higher because his peak was better than Duncan's, but you could argue one way or the other for that.

[po3try]

Jordan was a better player and overall accomplished more man.

[Ikill]

No he won 6 titles, the winningest player of his era. Is that a weakness?

Russell won eleven titles on a team with 9 hall of famers. He was a part of a all time great unit. so the other celtics that won 7 or 8 titles are better than jordan because they played on the most dominant team over 15 years in the history of bball?

there hall of famers because of Russell

[ILLsmak]

lol I wouldn't prop up people's rebounds in the 60s. They were missing all of the time. Someone had to get those rebounds. It only makes sense that a good C would be the one getting them. I bet Jordan could have averaged 15 rebounds per game then, easy.

-Smak

[Owl]

Russel is better than greater than Jordan, easily. Averaging 30ppg is easier than averaging 22rpg for the Career of Russel, and 16ppg. On top of that, its not close in regards to Titles.

Tim Duncan is easily greater than Shaq. Here are their career numbers.

Here are Tim Duncan and Shaq's career numbers and accomplishments

Lets take it to the scorecard as it stands right NOW:

titles: Shaq 4, Duncan 3
finals mvps: Shaq 3, duncan 3
season mvps: Shaq 1, Duncan 2
1st team all nba: Shaq 7, Duncan 9
1st team all defense: Shaq 0, Duncan 7 (Shaq only has 3 2nd team all defense!)
Shaq career: 25.9ppg, 11.6 rpg, 2.8apg, 2.8bpg
Duncan Career: 21.8 ppg, 11.9rpg, 3.2apg, 2.4bpg

Now lets discuss the obvious. Shaq has been in the league 5 more years than Duncan, but only has one more title, both even in finals mvps, Duncan with one more season mvp at 2-1. Here is where it gets shocking: Shaq has been in the league over 14+ years, but only 7 first team all nba elections? That a mere 50%! Also, Shaq has never, not even once been voted first team all defense- with only 3, count it 3 total 2ND TEAM all defense selections! Wow! He's a bigger defensive liability than Steve Nash! Even with all this "dominant" scoring, career wise he leads Duncan by only four points in career average! It is obvious that all you who swear by Shaq's dominance have been utterly duped!

Anyone please look at these numbers and prove Shaq is better than Duncan! According to their career numbers and stats, Duncan is already ahead of Shaq, and its not even close! One more title and finals mvp will simply be icing on the cake.

Here are a few additional points.
TD teammates: at best in a 15 and 5 David Robinson in 2003, Tony Parker (good but not great), Manu (inconsistent) Ginobli, Bruce Bowen (could there be more of an offfensive liability in the starting lineup no less), Malik Rose (!), and Stephen Jackson (sometimes clutch, most other times a saga of turnovers and bad shots, and older version of Robert Horry (clutch but very limited), and old Michael Finley (streaky but classy), and Brent Barry (even more streaky)

Shaq's Teammates: Kobe Bryant (wow, could you have a better "sidekick"?), Dwayne Wade (I guess you can!), Penny Hardaway (good enough to be the Lebron of the mid 90s), Derek Fisher (cluth shooter, his jumper took only 1.3 seconds in .4 of game time to win!), a very Spry Robert Horry (how can you have Kobe, Horry, and Fisher on one team? Too much clutchness), etc..

Advantage? Shaq by far. Kobe and Wade together are better than all TD teammates combined.

Coaching? Well, Phil Jackson has won 9 titles, and if that isn't enough, Pat Riley has won 6 titles. Thats a grand total of 15 titles behind Shaq's coaching staffs; Greg Pop (maybe) for Duncan, maybe 4. However its still not that close. When Phil came to the Lakers, he already had 6 titles. When Pop became coach of the Spurs? He'd won 0 (zero), and hadn't even performed well at the college ranks either. So in essence you have Mike Brown coaching TD as rookie (as far as coaching experience).

So again, to sum it up, Shaq had so much more to work with than TD, and has done so much less. If TD wins his 4th (now up 3-0 in the finals), he will be ahead in every other career statistic, accomplishment comfortably at least; some categories he is so far ahead it is embarrassing (to Shaq), like first team all-defense (7-0).

Now that's settled lets review Bill Russel and Jordan's accomplishments:
Bill Russell:
G FG% FG% Rebs RPG Asts APG Pts PPG
963 .440 .561 21,620 22.5 4,100 4.3 14,522 15.1

Michael Jordan:
G FG% 3PFG%FT%Rebs RPG Asts APG Stls Blks Pts PPG
1,072 .497 .327 .835 6,672 6.2 5,633 5.3 2,514 893 32,292 30.1

So thats it. They both played about the same number of games, so who is greater? MJ averaged 30.1ppg, 6.2 rpg, and 5.3apg., Bill Russel averaged 15.1pppg, an whopping 22.5 rebounds a game, and 4.3apg. Let's look at it this way: Jordan averaged about twice as many points, but Russel averaged almost 4 times as many rebounds, and Jordan +1 in assists. So who has the advantage in numbers? Perhaps it is best to think of it in terms of todays game. Kobe Bryant and (previously AI) are 30ppg scorers, but so what? Neither of them have LED their team to titles. 30ppg is not some mythic number that equates to victory. HOWEVER, 22.5 rpg is ASTOUNDING! Can you imagine a big man today averaging 22.5 rpg?!? That in itself and by itself would change the outcome of most games. 30ppg is probably a bit less than 1/3 of points scored in an NBA game. HOWEVER, 22.5rpg is half the rebounds virtually every team averages for an entire game, that's 50% of all team rpg to one man! For MJ equal such a feat, he would had to have averaged somewhere in the range of 50ppg for his career, obviiosly not happening.

Based on these numbers, the edge would naturally go to Bill Russel, but for the sake of arguing further, we'll call it even between the two. Why? Because the next category the numbers are REALLY skewed.

Titles:

Bill Russel: 11
Jordan: 6

Wow. 11? Well that's it. MJ was overmatched from the Start. He would have to start winning titles in 88, and not take time off from work for personal pursuits.

Again, Bill Russel is greater than Michael Jordan, and its much wider a chasm than the one that lays between Tim Duncan (the greater) and Shaq (the lesser). Here are a few instructional tools so we have better understanding of my criteria:

1. In regards to Russel and Jordan, I couldn't use steals or blocks, because these Stats weren't kept until 1969. This works out well for Jordan, because Russell, who averaged 22.5 rpg, was beyond compare in rebounding and defensive positioning, meaning an even more lopsided win for Russell statistically.

2. I don't want to hear about the competition being poor then. Russell consistently went against AND guarded all game long Wilt Chamberlain. WILT CHAMBERLAIN!!! There is a huge difference between playing against someone on another team, and GUARDING someone all night long. In essence, he was Bruce Bowen to Wilt, only he averaged 22.5 rpg and 15.1ppg (and obviously did not shut down Wilt.)

3. Listing Jordan's (or Shaq's) career scoring games WON'T MAKE A DIFFERENCE. Jordan 's career high was 69 points. Obviously a stellar performance. But Bill Russel? Bill Russel's career high was 50rpgs. 50! That is more than 100% of the teams rpg output He also got 49rpgs on a few occasions. Bill Russell's 50rpg is more impressive than even Wilts 100 point game (easily).

4. Anyone who thinks Bill Russel was not the man on the Celtics doesn't know basketball. NO ONE AND I MEAN NO ONE AVERAGES THOSE NUMBERS AND NOT BE "THE MAN."

5. I don't want to hear about Russel having the greatest team and not being fair. And? The Bulls had Jordan, at the time the best in the league and Pippen, the best all around player in the league. Most nights you could hardly tell who was who. Nobody cared that the Lakers had Shaq and Kobe, two superstars. Or that Bird had Mchale and Parish and others. Don't get me started on the Showtime Lakers!

In closing, you indeed heard me correctly. Bill Russel is the GOAT and Tim Duncan is greater than Shaq.

How is it that if MJ's ppg is easier to achieve than Russell's rebounding that no one has matched Jordan's ppg (http://www.basketball-reference.com/..._g_career.html) and Wilt has a superior rpg to Russell and mantained that rate for longer (http://www.basketball-reference.com/...g_career.html). And this is completely ignoring the influence of pace and field goal percentages.

Wow! He's a bigger defensive liability than Steve Nash!

Not remotely true. At this point most people stopped reading.

And finally, please at least get the man's name right. Getting it repeatedly wrong despite having looked up his stats and so presumably seeing it spelt correctly further cements your lack of credibility.

[DKLaker]

poet707 guy is a complete moron, a literal Volcano of garbage spewing.
Reading anything he posts is time you'll never get back.....best to just ignore anything he says.

[TheBigVeto]

Russell over Jordan is debatable. I wouldn't argue if somebody puts one over the other.
But Duncan is definitely >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Shaq.

[KOBE143]

Poor man's Tony Allen or Poor man's Joel Anthony?

Hmm pretty obvious Jordan..