Bill Russel Is Greater Than Jordan, And Tim Duncan Is Greater Than Shaq

[poeticism707]

Jordan was the complete player - what area would you consider a weakness? He is known as the GOAT for a reason.

He mastered the offensive game... what couldnt he do? he didnt shoot many threes but it wasnt a weakness. tell me his offensive weakness you dumbf*ck

then tell what he couldnt do at his postion defensively

I tell you, this board can be moronic at times

Did he win 11 titles as the man? At all? Compared to Russell, that is rather glaring weakness.

[G-train]

At the 2 guard position he averaged 6.2 rebounds per game. that is not a weakness

Now list his weakness's. come on

Russell is all time great, top ten player ever most likely. He is probably the greatest defender ever, but he averaged 16 a game with no moves bar layups and dunks.
But Jordan was 10 times the offensive player, and the greatest defensive guard ever.

[G-train]

Did he win 11 titles as the man? At all? Compared to Russell, that is rather glaring weakness.

No he won 6 titles, the winningest player of his era. Is that a weakness?

Russell won eleven titles on a team with 9 hall of famers. He was a part of a all time great unit. so the other celtics that won 7 or 8 titles are better than jordan because they played on the most dominant team over 15 years in the history of bball?

[poeticism707]

No he won 6 titles, the winningest player of his era. Is that a weakness?

Russell won eleven titles on a team with 9 hall of famers. He was a part of a all time great unit. so the other celtics that won 7 or 8 titles are better than jordan because they played on the most dominant team over 15 years in the history of bball?

Of course they are (just kidding). No whether they were good or no, it doesn't invalidate such greatness as Bill Russel showed. Just because there was no cable to show it, doesn't mean his greatness should be overlooked. Bill Russel is the GOAT, MJ is the MOAT (MOST-HYPED OF ALL TIME).

Also, that is the difference between Russel and Jordan. Jordan is the winningest player of his era; Russell is the winninest player of ANY era. (among those who're the "main man")

[G-train]

ok, now explain to me Michael Jordans weakness's as a player on the basketball court. Nothing to do with team or timeframes, but as a player.

[poeticism707]

ok, now explain to me Michael Jordans weakness's as a player on the basketball court. Nothing to do with team or timeframes, but as a player.

It's not just about his weaknesses. It is a question of are his strengths stronger than Russell strengths. The answer is a resonding NO. 30ppg, 5.3apg, 6.2rpg with 6 titles loses every time to 15.1ppg, 22.5rpg, and 4.3apg, with 11 titles. MJ was great; Russell is the greatest.

[G-train]

It's not just about his weaknesses. It is a question of are his strengths stronger than Russell strengths. The answer is a resonding NO. 30ppg, 5.3apg, 6.2rpg with 6 titles loses every time to 15.1ppg, 22.5rpg, and 4.3apg, with 11 titles. MJ was great; Russell is the greatest.

fool! russell averaged 15 when players and teams were scoring in bunches. his offensive game was full of holes

jordan is the greatest offensive player ever, no weakness's adn the greatest guard defender ever

Russells rebounding is like averaging 14 today. Did u look at the link? Rebounding numbers were high across the board. All you have to offer is the rebounding and its a flawed argument. If you knew the game, what made Russell great was his athletiscm, shot blocking and intelligence

consider yourself OWNED

[poeticism707]

fool! russell averaged 15 when players and teams were scoring in bunches. his offensive game was full of holes

jordan is the greatest offensive player ever, no weakness's adn the greatest guard defender ever

Russells rebounding is like averaging 14 today. Did u look at the link? Rebounding numbers were high across the board. All you have to offer is the rebounding and its a flawed argument. If you knew the game, what made Russell great was his athletiscm, shot blocking and intelligence

consider yourself OWNED

Consider yourself a moron for making sweeping statements about imperfect people, ie "Jordan had no weakness", "best guard defender ever!" O really? Ever heard of Dennis Johnson? Joe Dumars just to tame a few? Your knowledge of the game could not be more limited, and your arguments could not be more flawed. Even if MJ was the GOAT (he's not, he's the MOAT), you certainly haven't proven it. Why don't you get Stuart Scott to type for you, then ESPN can provide all of your opinions for you. If they want your opinion, they'll give it to you. The lamp lighting your computer or the onion in your refrigerator has more cognitive skills than you; the squash has more personality!

[lovethetriangle]

Did he average 22.5rpg for his career? Compared to Russell, that is a weakness...

This is where you lose.

[Aussie Dunker]

I wonder what jordans stats and achievments would of been like in Bill russel's day...

[Kintotheizzo]

Bill Russel would not even average 14 RPG more between 11-12 RPG.

[dejordan]

first of all getting 20+ rebounds was much easier back in russell's day because the game pace was alot faster (actually getting 30 plus points was too), so your statistics are already looking sloppy - but we know this from your previous arguments where you try to prove that awards and numbers can tell the whole story of a basketball player.

now let's review all the clutch playoffs plays that took place for russell's storied boston celtics: last second shots - sam jones; fourth quarter point barrages - tommy heinson & bill sharman; dribbling out the clock to save the lead - bob cousy; havlicek steals it after russell throws an inbound from under the rim off his own backboard and jeopardizes his team's lead - hondo.

now let's review the clutch playoff plays for michael jordan's storied bulls; jordan over elho - jordan; jordan over g. wilkins - jordan; jordan, pippen, and grant all block charles smith - jordan / pippen / grant; game tying two and huge overtime scoring to beat la - jordan; string of assists to paxson to close out la - jordan; game 5 dagger after putting up 50+ to seal win v. suns - jordan; game 6 game winner v. suns - paxson; game winner and 50+ pts v. bullets - jordan; shot over russell for game 1 victory over jazz - jordan; assist to steve kerr for game 6 win over jazz (97) - jordan; game 5 three for the win over jazz w/ the flu - jordan; game 6 score steal and score to bring his team back from down three and win a 6th title - jordan.

so that's not even in the ball park. have fun scouring wikipedia and basketball-reference for counterpoints. i'll start a running list of experts who don't give a sh!t what the media says and all believe jordan is the goat - jerry west, magic johnson, isiah thomas, bob cousy, bob ryan, alonzo mourning, marv albert, doug collins, pat riley, grant hill, dominique wilkins, charles barkley, tim legler, tom tolbert, reggie miller - actually the list of experts who openly disagree is shorter: wilt, oscar, mark jackson, that hill woman from espn.com, and michael jordan who says, accurately, that as he never got to go against his predecessors, any ranking is purely speculative.

[Loki]

Russel is better than greater than Jordan, easily. Averaging 30ppg is easier than averaging 22rpg for the Career of Russel, and 16ppg.

Considering that 22 rpg back then is around 14 rpg today, no, it's not. Russell, in his best rebounding year, grabbed 24.7 boards, which was 35.3% of his team's rebounds -- roughly a third, not "half" of the team's rebounds as you later suggest. And that was his best rebounding season. His % of total team rebounds for other seasons was generally between 32-35%. So one third, not one half. 35% of the average team's rebounds today would be 14.3 reb/gm. Still very impressive, but not quite the same.

MJ averaged 30.1ppg, 6.2 rpg, and 5.3apg., Bill Russel averaged 15.1pppg, an whopping 22.5 rebounds a game, and 4.3apg.

Russell's prime numbers in the late 80's/early 90's would look like 13 pts/14.8 reb/4 ast/4 blk/46% FG. During that same time, Jordan was averaging ~32.5 pts/6.5 reb/5.8 ast/2.6 stl/1 blk/53% FG. I know which one I'd pick...

Based on these numbers, the edge would naturally go to Bill Russel, but for the sake of arguing further, we'll call it even between the two.

The numbers are clearly in Jordan's favor:

Jordan's PER through age 30: 29.7
Russell's PER through age 30: 19.9

Now, blocks were not counnted in Russell's day, which would certainly raise his PER, but not to the tune of 9.8 points. He'd probably be around 22-24 PER at best if blocks were counted (blocks -- even 10 bpg -- can't raise one's PER by 9-10 points due to the nature of the formula employed). Jordan was near 30 PER. So Jordan had a clear -- and sizeable -- statistical edge. In fact, he has a sizeable edge over everyone who has ever played with a few exceptions: Wilt, Shaq, and 70's Kareem.

The Bulls had Jordan, at the time the best in the league and Pippen, the best all around player in the league. Most nights you could hardly tell who was who.

You had better get some new glasses, then.

[nba_on_nbc]

It's always sad to see someone who's still not aware of terms like "pace", "rebound rate" etc.

Russell was the ultimate team player, a great winner, top 6 all time. But what's even sadder is that this kind of unintelligent, uninformed arguments only hurt his legacy.

[brantonli]

scratch that, I will come up with a better response.