America is the greatest country in the world

[Overdrive]

What is the agenda? I'm saying the United States has a higher murder rate than those aforementioned countries and for two reasons alone.

1. Vastly Higher Population

2. Guns are Legal to Own

In the past you said banning guns wouldn't help. Higher population than China?

[Patrick Chewing]

In the past you said banning guns wouldn't help. Higher population than China?

I never said banning guns would not help. I said banning guns as a knee-jerk reaction to the actions of a few lunatics is one of the worst things that can happen to this country.

Higher population than those European countries listen on that map.

[Overdrive]

I never said banning guns would not help. I said banning guns as a knee-jerk reaction to the actions of a few lunatics is one of the worst things that can happen to this country.

Higher population than those European countries listen on that map.

per 100.000

[Akrazotile]

This chart largely compares America to "peer" countries. However these peer countries range from "more homogeneous" to "far more homogeneous" than America. I wonder what happens if we crunch the numbers for America based solely on its largest demographic?



In 2010 the population of white Americans was 223 million (https://www.census.gov/newsroom/rele...b11-cn125.html)

In 2012 (closest year I can find data on, the chart in the OP is using 2011 data) whites including hispanics committed 5,000 murders/non-negligent manslaughters. https://www.politifact.com/punditfac...ested-violent/


So let's divide 223M by 100,000. We get 2,230. We now divide the white number of homicides (5k) by that number and we get 2.24 homicides per 100,000 people. That puts American whites still at the head of the pack but far closer to their "peers" in other countries than the above chart would have you believe.

When you add the murders of black offenders to white offenders, it doubles the amount of homicides, yet only adds 13% to the population pool. And that's why you see the homicide per 100,000 jump so much higher when you do so.



Thus we can conclude that America's unique racial dynamic (you can blame whoever you want for this, blacks, whites, jews, it doesnt matter, it isn't the point) is FAR more relevant to America's pace-setting homicide rate than is gun ownership. FAR more relevant. Also keep in mind "white" in American homicide statistics also includes latinos, many of whom may be in America but may not even BE American.

"Guns dont kill people. Melting pots kill people."



But yo, diversity is our strength cuz media told me it

[Objectivity]

This chart largely compares America to "peer" countries. However these peer countries range from "more homogeneous" to "far more homogeneous" than America. I wonder what happens if we crunch the numbers for America based solely on its largest demographic?



In 2010 the population of white Americans was 223 million (https://www.census.gov/newsroom/rele...b11-cn125.html)

In 2012 (closest year I can find data on, the chart in the OP is using 2011 data) whites including hispanics committed 5,000 murders/non-negligent manslaughters. https://www.politifact.com/punditfac...ested-violent/


So let's divide 223M by 100,000. We get 2,230. We now divide the white number of homicides (5k) by that number and we get 2.24 homicides per 100,000 people. That puts American whites still at the head of the pack but far closer to their "peers" in other countries.

When you add the murders of black offenders to white offenders, it doubles the amount of homicides, yet only adds 13% to the population pool. And that's why you see the homicide per 100,000 jump so much higher when you do so.



Thus we can conclude that America's unique racial dynamic (you can blame whoever you want for this, blacks, whites, jews, it doesnt matter, it isn't the point) is FAR more relevant to America's pace-setting homicide rate than is gun ownership. FAR more relevant. Also keep in mind "white" in America also includes latinos, many of whom may be in America but may not even be American.

"Guns dont kill people. Melting pots kill people."

You have a point, i even posted a chart supporting your exact conclusions.

[highwhey]

Patrick Chewing doesn't understand what per 100,000 people means

[Akrazotile]

Buddy, china has 4x the USA population and yet fewer murders overall.

I dont doubt China having a lower rate murder rate than the US, and perhaps still so even if you adjust for homogeneity. Still worth noting tho is that China isnt the most reliable place to gather statistics from. So they arent an easy country to compare with, and probably why they werent considered a “peer” on the chart.

[tpols]

[COLOR="Red"]What... the f*ck?
[/COLOR]
How does it make more sense to compare us with Brazil than with another first world country?

he baffles the mind...

[Akrazotile]

What... the f*ck?

How does it make more sense to compare us with Brazil than with another first world country?

When you consider demographic diversity and income disparity, Brazil probably is a better comparison to the US than Sweden.

[Patrick Chewing]

When you consider demographic diversity and income disparity, Brazil probably is a better comparison to the US than Sweden.

I'm not understanding how these guys are comparing the United States to Sweden from a First World comparison in relation to the topic at hand. And this means what to them? Less homicides? Whether these countries in that graphic were Third World or First World, they do not allow their citizens to carry guns or even purchase guns, so the murder comparisons will always be skewed.

Brazil is the richest country is South America, and yes, it is not a First World type of country, but it has a population similar to the United States. In Brazil, all firearms are required to be registered with the minimum age for gun ownership being 25. It is generally illegal to carry a gun outside a residence, and a special permit granting the right to do so is granted to certain groups, such as law enforcement officers (tougher laws than the United States). However, with all that being said, in 2016, Brazil had a record 61,819 murders or on average 198 murders per day, giving a yearly homicide rate of 29.9 per 100,000 population.

[Akrazotile]

I'm not understanding how these guys are comparing the United States to Sweden from a First World comparison in relation to the topic at hand. And this means what to them? Less homicides? Whether these countries in that graphic were Third World or First World, they do not allow their citizens to carry guns or even purchase guns, so the murder comparisons will always be skewed.

Brazil is the richest country is South America, and yes, it is not a First World type of country, but it has a population similar to the United States. In Brazil, all firearms are required to be registered with the minimum age for gun ownership being 25. It is generally illegal to carry a gun outside a residence, and a special permit granting the right to do so is granted to certain groups, such as law enforcement officers (tougher laws than the United States). However, with all that being said, in 2016, Brazil had a record 61,819 murders or on average 198 murders per day, giving a yearly homicide rate of 29.9 per 100,000 population.

Yep. And actually the data on gun homicides relative to gun laws and ownership in comparable countries is not highly correlative at all.

Take northern Europe for instance:

More guns in the North, but more gunshot deaths in the Netherlands

Gun ownership is restricted in all three countries and people with criminal records are barred from obtaining firearm licenses. But guns are not uncommon in Finland and Sweden, where hunting is popular, while the Netherlands has the least number of registered guns. But the latter country is also, ironically, where the most people get shot.


Hagstedt says it appears to be more organised crime and for-profit motives behind murders in the Netherlands.

http://sciencenordic.com/alcohol-beh...-homicide-rate

Guys like tpols and co. want simple, easy narratives that they've heard in the media, and that they know a large, safe number of people already agree with. It's an intellectual safety net, it makes arguing much easier.

"Guns are the problem!"

Even if it's not that simple. But for simple minded people... the solutions necessarily have to be simple. Because they won't understand complexities.

Gotta keep it simple.

[fiddy]

What is the agenda? I'm saying the United States has a higher murder rate than those aforementioned countries and for two reasons alone.

1. Vastly Higher Population

2. Guns are Legal to Own

jfc dude

[Cleverness]

OP states "America is the greatest country in the world" without defining what that means or what makes a country great in the first place. Then he posts a bunch of charts...

-The first chart is about poverty rates which have declined since 1959. What is your point, OP?

If you want to compare poverty rates in countries, then compare standard of living. OP mentioned China. Well, if you want to compare poverty rates, please include what the poverty line is in the US and what it means to be poor in China.


-Akrazotile already summed up a lesson for you on those homicide/murder charts you posted. Those cherry-picked "peer" countries have tiny homogeneous populations. You might as well compare those places New Hampshire.


-Literacy... I wonder if the big gov't monopoly on public K-12 schools has anything to do with this


-Health care. The United States has the best healthcare providers (doctors, pharmacists, nurses, dentists, etc.), best cancer / preventative diseases screenings, and most advanced research and equipment.


-Defense spending - What is the point of that chart?



Lastly... please name other countries where a poor kid can come from nothing, work hard, make $200k/yr, and live a wonderful, prosperous life. I know people from other countries who came to the US and did that. Why? They said it's because "America is the greatest country in the world." I happen to agree.

[Prometheus]

This chart largely compares America to "peer" countries. However these peer countries range from "more homogeneous" to "far more homogeneous" than America. I wonder what happens if we crunch the numbers for America based solely on its largest demographic?



In 2010 the population of white Americans was 223 million (https://www.census.gov/newsroom/rele...b11-cn125.html)

In 2012 (closest year I can find data on, the chart in the OP is using 2011 data) whites including hispanics committed 5,000 murders/non-negligent manslaughters. https://www.politifact.com/punditfac...ested-violent/


So let's divide 223M by 100,000. We get 2,230. We now divide the white number of homicides (5k) by that number and we get 2.24 homicides per 100,000 people. That puts American whites still at the head of the pack but far closer to their "peers" in other countries than the above chart would have you believe.

When you add the murders of black offenders to white offenders, it doubles the amount of homicides, yet only adds 13% to the population pool. And that's why you see the homicide per 100,000 jump so much higher when you do so.



Thus we can conclude that America's unique racial dynamic (you can blame whoever you want for this, blacks, whites, jews, it doesnt matter, it isn't the point) is FAR more relevant to America's pace-setting homicide rate than is gun ownership. FAR more relevant. Also keep in mind "white" in American homicide statistics also includes latinos, many of whom may be in America but may not even BE American.

"Guns dont kill people. Melting pots kill people."



But yo, diversity is our strength cuz media told me it

This is actually a fantastic point, and one which I have been making with my family recently.

The USA trails a lot of other first world nations in HDI stats, and for the most part those stats are skewed by the poor conditions of most minority communities across the country.

My mother sees we have high murder rates. She thinks that means we should have strict gun laws - I think it means we should have better education.

[Akrazotile]

OP states "America is the greatest country in the world" without defining what that means or what makes a country great in the first place. Then he posts a bunch of charts...

-The first chart is about poverty rates which have declined since 1959. What is your point, OP?

If you want to compare poverty rates in countries, then compare standard of living. OP mentioned China. Well, if you want to compare poverty rates, please include what the poverty line is in the US and what it means to be poor in China.


-Akrazotile already summed up a lesson for you on those homicide/murder charts you posted. Those cherry-picked "peer" countries have tiny homogeneous populations. You might as well compare those places New Hampshire.


-Literacy... I wonder if the big gov't monopoly on public K-12 schools has anything to do with this


-Health care. The United States has the best healthcare providers (doctors, pharmacists, nurses, dentists, etc.), best cancer / preventative diseases screenings, and most advanced research and equipment.


-Defense spending - What is the point of that chart?



Lastly... please name other countries where a poor kid can come from nothing, work hard, make $200k/yr, and live a wonderful, prosperous life. I know people from other countries who came to the US and did that. Why? They said it's because "America is the greatest country in the world." I happen to agree.

Yep. And another point worth mentioning is that it wasnt even specified “greatest country to LIVE IN.” That could be a much closer discussion and more dependent on personal preferences.

But when you take overall quality of life and ADD America’s worldwide contributions in technology, entertainment, defense, agriculture, etc... There is no country the world would miss more BY FAR if it disappeared.

That’s why WE DA BESS.