Why did the 'Heatles' peak at #62 all-time offensively?

[Kblaze8855]

I've seen blaze do that for every single metric...point out the outliers and say its all worthless. You can literally do it for any argument ever.

I’m gonna tell you the same thing I said when it was per and winshares.

When it’s dozens(going player by player...hundreds) of clearly weird results it isn’t an outlier.

It’s the obvious problem presented by measuring basketball ability by numbers.

When PER blew up and people flat out admitted they knew it couldn’t properly measure players defense or the impact of playmaking...but those same people kept using it?

I knew being right wasn’t the goal as much as an easy argument.

You know it can’t rank points or consider defense...which is why guys like magic, Kidd, Isiah, Pippen, and Russell get screwed....and knowing it? I still see people use it.

So what am I to conclude except that these people don’t care if their numbers are bullshit?

[tpols]

I’m gonna tell you the same thing I said when it was per and winshares.

When it’s dozens(going player by player...hundreds) of clearly weird results it isn’t an outlier.

It’s the obvious problem presented by measuring basketball ability by numbers.

When PER blew up and people flat out admitted they knew it couldn’t properly measure players defense or the impact of playmaking...but those same people kept using it?

I knew being right wasn’t the goal as much as an easy argument.

You know it can’t rank points or consider defense...which is why guys like magic, Kidd, Isiah, Pippen, and Russell get screwed....and knowing it? I still see people use it.

So what am I to conclude except that these people don’t care if their numbers are bullshit?

Right but this stat here compliments arguments we've all had regarding lebrons ability to parlay elite talent into a dynasty... Its direct statistcal evidence levied against expectations. Why deny it?

You agreed with the context before as shown...but just wanna add a counter balance to 3ball spam? Spam or not its still true.

[Kblaze8855]

That stat like most others only works in the context the person presenting it wants to show. If it showed the truth in general there wouldnt be so very very many obvious examples of it being wrong. You cannot create arguments that can only be used to compare two people....or two teams. The game is bigger than one man.

Tell me...why should I care about Lebrons teams offensive ratings relative to like...Bird or Magic....but not care about Jason Kidds relative to Gary Payton?

I can site Lebrons team offensive rating when it suggests im right about a preexisting argument....but what do I do when offensive rating goes in the face of my argument about someone else?

When the 85 Lakers offensive rating is worse than the 95 Sonics who had less talent...

Why doesnt that matter?

Im not arguing it does.

Im saying it doesnt.

Im asking why does it only matter when it says what we expect it to?

When it doesnt? The stat is flawed.

If its flawed its flawed. Its not flawed when you decide it is.

I would take Bird to lead a team of role players over Lebron...even if Lebron led some higher offensive rated teams of role players than Bird had with 4 hall of famers.

I do not care that that number at times favors Lebron.

Why should I care when it doesnt?

[3ball]

Tell me...why should I care about Lebrons teams offensive ratings relative to like...Bird or Magic....but not care about Jason Kidds relative to Gary Payton?

Because a career of inferior offensive production gave Lebron-ball a much lower chance to winning than curry/mj/bird/magic

It should be factored into the equation of why he won less

bird/magic's offenses peaked at top 3 all-time, and MJ/Curry at top 2, while lebron's peaked at #26 (heat at #62).. obviously, his #85 offense is partly why he won less than 16' curry (#13) and was an underdog to him - it's statistical fact.. better offense is correlated with more winning

But if you can't see that the way lebron plays leads to weaker teamwork and teams then the guys he's compared to, then I guess ur in denial

And we dont compare lebron to Kidd/Payton so we don't care how his offenses compare to theirs

[tpols]

The game is bigger than one man.

The problem is, with LeBron, its not.

[Kblaze8855]

The Lebron team you mentioned as his peak is just ahead of the 2018 warriors as an offense by this metric.

Let’s keep it simple.

Do you believe that is true from a basketball point of view? 17 Cavs were a better offense than last seasons warriors?

That how you see things? That Lebron created a better offense with Kyrie and love than Curry did with Durant and Klay?

We just throwing out the many things we know factor in and going with the base number as the truth? Or will we look deeper for the reasons that make that number largely irrelevant?

I’d just like your thoughts on that then I’ll go back to this playoff game.

[Trollsmasher]

the Heat had essentially no offensive rebounding

[3ball]

The Lebron team you mentioned as his peak is just ahead of the 2018 warriors as an offense by this metric.

Let’s keep it simple.

Do you believe that is true from a basketball point of view? 17 Cavs were a better offense than last seasons warriors?

That how you see things? That Lebron created a better offense with Kyrie and love than Curry did with Durant and Klay?

We just throwing out the many things we know factor in and going with the base number as the truth? Or will we look deeper for the reasons that make that number largely irrelevant?

I’d just like your thoughts on that then I’ll go back to this playoff game.

Is Bosh a better scorer than Barkley because he averaged 24 ppg in 2010, and Barkley averaged 21 in 1994?

Obviously not, because one season doesn't tell the story

but a CAREER of Barkley having higher averages makes Barkley better

Similarly, a career of curry/MJ/bird/magic having better offenses than lebron-ball shows that their offenses were better, thereby increasing their odds of winning

Lebron had 4 years with Heatles talent to crack the top 50 offenses - he couldn't do it.. that indicates an issue compared to other guys, especially combined with his 4 years in Cleveland that also produced inferior offensive production...

or his two 1-seeds in 09 & 10... And even his early Cleveland teams had lesser offenses than curry/MJ's early teams..

[Kblaze8855]

Career averages don

[3ball]

Career averages don’t make Barkley better. Being unstoppable in the post, better in the open court, and and a beast facing up(not that preak bosh wasn’t)make him better. Bosh is a better spot up shooter but that’s it far as scoring. Which brings us to the bottom line problem with how we view these things...

You see numbers as proof [COLOR="Blue"]and I see skill set[/COLOR] which I accept can’t be proven.

I don’t care what Bosh’s career average is compared to Kevin Mchale. Mchale can give me 45 if I ask him for it and the only way to prevent it is to double. Bosh has less of a desire to prove himself which is useful in a third option but less valuable when you need someone to put in work.

I’m generally just never gonna care about these numbers....and unlike most I’m willing to disregard them even when they may be on my side....because I’d feel like a joke to dismiss them when they aren’t. I’m a big picture guy.

Anyway....carry on.

Gimme a break.. many condemnations of lebron-ball are eye test - the standing around.. the over-dribbling, the lack of ball movement.. no off-ball.. the spot-up shooting

I'm just providing hardcore assist and ortg numbers to back up what we already see

The facts remain - better offenses are correlated with winning, so lebron's inferior offenses were one of the factors that hurt his winning in relation to guys like curry/magic/bird/MJ...

[tamaraw08]

[QUOTE=Kblaze8855]You asked a Question about a subject that doesn

[90sgoat]

Lebron plays a suboptimal playground style of basketball, which underutilize his star teammates and turns playmakers into shot finishers and takes away potential team assists.

[aj1987]

Lebron plays a suboptimal playground style of basketball, which underutilize his star teammates and turns playmakers into shot finishers and takes away potential team assists.

And yet, he's the only player not named MJ with at least 4 MVP's and 3 FMVP's.

[superduper]

the Heat had essentially no offensive rebounding

But what about all those rebounds LeGOAT grabs every game?!?

Oh yeah.... they're zero impact uncontested defensive rebounds.

[Odinn]

And yet, he's the only player not named MJ with at least 4 MVP's and 3 FMVP's.

Actually Kareem is in that club. Shame that people forget that Kareem actually won the award but the media didn't want present it to an empty chair and gave it to Magic instead.
*Edit: Talking about 1980, surely.