We're seeing what Lebron would've done on a developing, new coach Bulls team in 1990

[NBAGOAT]

you praise mj if he orchestrated a pippen trade for a barkley or malone lol. Double standards. I frankly dont care. It sucks for ingram, ball, kuzma and yes bron didnt gel well with some(mainly ingram). I get that bron may have kickstarted the super team era but I still dont care.

Golden State just throws things out of balance. 5 all stars is unprecedented. There may be teams in the 80's that compare but no team in the 90's besides MJ's own is in the same stratosphere as GS(i will laugh at people who suggest sonics or jazz). Hou last year is an easy finals team most years and they needed GS to sleepwalk through the series to have a chance.

Every team should be trying to stack the deck which is why very good teams like mil and tor are pushing so hard for ad and okc and hou are considering going after cousins next year just to compete with gs even though they dont need centers

[sdot_thadon]

34 year old mj embraced phil and the triangle even more than 90' mj did..

MJ was fundamentally-sound, and would never jettison Phil or any coach like what lebron did to Luke and Blatt, and tried terminate spolestra too (but Riley put him in his place)

So age has nothing to do with it

Lebron simply sacrifices the best opportunity to win (ball movement/good coaching) by attempting to win in a ball-dominant/stat-padding way - this self-serving approach requires more help and creates long odds.. Accordingly, it rarely wins at the championship level. 3/9

And surely it's an easier path to land on the Finals favorite heading into the 2011 and 2015 seasons (year 1), than elevate the bulls from 8-seed doormats in 86' and win as underdogs heading into the 91' season... (2015 pre-season odds)

Finally, the stats don't lie.. lebron only needed 26-27 ppg average thru the first 3 rounds to make the 07/11/13/14 Finals, whereas MJ needed over 30 to make every Finals. And MJ simply produced more to win: 33.7 and 6.6 apg in the 91-93' PO, versus 27.1 and 7.2 in the 12/13/16 PO for lebron.. while also having better losing stats - 37/7/7 in 90' PO, or 44 ppg vs 86' celts
.

i love how you typed that wall of text to try to shift the goalposts yet again. Mj at 34 never had to deal with a young team nor unproven coach......so what's your point besides contorting yourself into knots trying to compare Mj and Lebron and making Mj look worse in every attempt.

[3ball]

i love how you typed that wall of text to try to shift the goalposts yet again. [COLOR="DarkRed"]Mj at 34 never had to deal with a young team[/COLOR] nor unproven coach......so what's your point besides contorting yourself into knots trying to compare Mj and Lebron and making Mj look worse in every attempt.

Lebron chose to play with young players because he cratered in Cleveland and couldn't build a dynasty

Whereas MJ built a dynasty, so ur inventing a scenario that MJ was good enough to avoid (having to start over late into his prime)..

mj isn't REQUIRED to play with a young team late in his career - lebron had to do that because he cratered in Cleveland, and subsequently viewed these Lakers as the best scenario to enhance his career going forward.. But if he was good enough to have consistent favorites and long-standing dynasties in Miami or Cleveland, he wouldn't need to reinvent his career in his mid-thirties

By lamenting that lebron must lead a young team late in his prime, ur giving lebron a pass for something you should be knocking him for (losing more and being a team-hopping underdog, rather than the favorite and a dynasty)

[3ball]

[COLOR="DarkRed"]you'd praise mj if he orchestrated a pippen trade for a barkley or malone lol.[/COLOR] Double standards. I frankly dont care. It sucks for ingram, ball, kuzma and yes bron didnt gel well with some(mainly ingram). I get that bron may have kickstarted the super team era but I still dont care.

No I wouldn't - Lebron is in this position (fielding a young team and seeking a trade) because he cratered in Cleveland and failed to achieve a dynasty

Ultimately, the Cavs and Warriors were the only super-teams with 3 HOF's in recent years, while the Heat were the only super-team from 11-14'.. And lebron's teams always had record payroll.. so lebron should be knocked for not having dominant favorites or flirting with 70 wins like curry/kawhi did, and instead losing more with consistent underdog status.. but Lebron fans have simply weaponized his losing by seeking sympathy for his underdog status, instead of knocking him for not winning and achieving favorites like his peers

Golden State just throws things out of balance. [COLOR="DarkRed"]5 all stars is unprecedented[/COLOR]. There may be teams in the 80's that compare but no team in the 90's besides MJ's own is in the same stratosphere as GS(i will laugh at people who suggest sonics or jazz). Hou last year is an easy finals team most years and they needed GS to sleepwalk through the series to have a chance.

Every team should be trying to stack the deck which is why very good teams like mil and tor are pushing so hard for ad and okc and hou are considering going after cousins next year just to compete with gs even though they dont need centers

5 all-stars isn't unprecedented.. the Bad Boys had 3x all-stars at every starting spot (edit: rodman was 2x all-star and 2x dpoy)

And the pistons were young when they lost to MJ... Isiah was 29 in 1991.. dumars and rodman were 27. They were all-stars and the team was favored to 3-peat heading into the 91' season.

So they were a dynasty, but the bulls simply destroyed them the same way the 14' spurs beat the 2-time Heat: with superior brand of ball against an all-star team (pistons had 3x all-stars at every starting spot; bulls had 1x pippen)

Surely it's an easier path to land on the Finals favorite heading into the 2011 and 2015 seasons (year 1), than elevate the bulls from 8-seed doormats in 86' and win as underdogs heading into the 91' season.. (pre-season odds for 2015, here)
.

[bigkingsfan]

Imagine bragging about a team that was breaking down. When you were clear favorites. After getting your ass handed three times straight.

"The Bulls have little excuse not to beat the Pistons this year. Unlike in their previous three encounters, Chicago has many factors in its favor, like these:

*Home-court advantage. In Jordan's career, the Bulls are 4-0 in series in which they have had the home-court edge. The Pistons have lost five consecutive games in Chicago, including three during last year's playoffs. And the Bulls are undefeated (5-0) at home during the playoffs this year.

*Health. Chicago has not played since last Tuesday; the Pistons just finished off the Celtics on Friday night in Game 6, in overtime by 117-113. Except for the normal bumps and bruises of May, the Bulls are healthy. Jordan is nursing tendinitis in his left knee, but that didn't stop him from averaging 33.4 points in Chicago's second-round playoff series against the 76ers. Bulls forward Horace Grant is bothered by an eye irritation, but he also played well against Philadelphia.

(Meanwhile, the Pistons' training room should have a "no vacancy" sign on it. Although he played brilliantly Friday, All-Star point guard Isiah Thomas is hobbled by a sprained foot, a pulled hamstring and a surgically repaired left wrist that has not fully healed. Thomas did not start the last three games of the Celtics series, and he may not start Sunday. Both Joe Dumars, tendinitis in both knees, and Vinnie Johnson, bruised right shin are playing with nagging injuries.)"

[3ball]

Imagine bragging about a team that was breaking down. When you were clear favorites. After getting your ass handed three times straight.

"The Bulls have little excuse not to beat the Pistons this year. Unlike in their previous three encounters, Chicago has many factors in its favor, like these:

*Home-court advantage. In Jordan's career, the Bulls are 4-0 in series in which they have had the home-court edge. The Pistons have lost five consecutive games in Chicago, including three during last year's playoffs. And the Bulls are undefeated (5-0) at home during the playoffs this year.

*Health. Chicago has not played since last Tuesday; the Pistons just finished off the Celtics on Friday night in Game 6, in overtime by 117-113. Except for the normal bumps and bruises of May, the Bulls are healthy. Jordan is nursing tendinitis in his left knee, but that didn't stop him from averaging 33.4 points in Chicago's second-round playoff series against the 76ers. Bulls forward Horace Grant is bothered by an eye irritation, but he also played well against Philadelphia.

(Meanwhile, the Pistons' training room should have a "no vacancy" sign on it. Although he played brilliantly Friday, All-Star point guard Isiah Thomas is hobbled by a sprained foot, a pulled hamstring and a surgically repaired left wrist that has not fully healed. Thomas did not start the last three games of the Celtics series, and he may not start Sunday. Both Joe Dumars, tendinitis in both knees, and Vinnie Johnson, bruised right shin are playing with nagging injuries.)"

And?

Who cares that the Pistons were banged up - all teams are banged up at that point in the season.. the article mentions that both MJ and Isiah were banged up, but still played great

The Pistons were young - Isiah was 29 in 1991.. dumars and rodman were 27. They were all-stars and the team was favored to 3-peat heading into the 91' season.

So they were a dynasty, but the bulls simply destroyed them the same way the 14' spurs beat the 2-time Heat: with superior brand of ball against an all-star team (pistons had 3x all-stars at every starting spot; bulls had 1x pippen)

Surely it's an easier path to land on the Finals favorite heading into the 2011 and 2015 seasons (year 1), than elevate the bulls from 8-seed doormats in 86' and win as underdogs heading into the 91' season.. (pre-season odds for 2015, here)
.

[bigkingsfan]

Pistons were a third seed. Weren't you crying about needing to be a 1/2 seed to be a great team.

The reality is, the Bulls should have beat them the year before, up 2-1.

[3ball]

Pistons were a third seed. Weren't you crying about needing to be a 1/2 seed to be a great team.

Plenty of teams win as the 3 seed

I was making a broader point that the following stats clearly indicate that MJ was the most unbeatable:

Losses as 1 or 2 seed


Bird: 5
Magic: 6
Wilt: 9
Russell: 2
Kareem: 9
Kobe: 4
Shaq: 5
Duncan: 6
Lebron: 6
the goat: 0

Again, that's a big enough sample to show that MJ was the most unbeatable

Btw, u think the 89' bulls should've beaten a dynasty, but these Lakers can't despite 3 teammates > 89' pippen???..

it's a testament to MJ's goatness that he took the champs to 6 games with a 6 seed, compared to lebron's 2 and 4 seeds getting record sweeps
.

[bigkingsfan]

LOL the most unbeatable would be Bill Russell and it's not even close.

[3ball]

LOL the most unbeatable would be Bill Russell and it's not even close.

But in the modern era, it's obviously jordan

Losses as 1 or 2 seed


Bird: 5
Magic: 6
Wilt: 9
Russell: 2
Kareem: 9
Kobe: 4
Shaq: 5
Duncan: 6
Lebron: 6
the goat: 0

Again, that's a big enough sample to show that MJ was the most unbeatable

[bigkingsfan]

[Da_Realist]

Ultimately, the Cavs and Warriors were the only super-teams with 3 HOF's in recent years, while the Heat were the only super-team from 11-14'.. And lebron's teams always had record payroll.. so lebron should be knocked for not having dominant favorites or flirting with 70 wins like curry/kawhi did, and instead losing more with consistent underdog status.. but Lebron fans have simply weaponized his losing by seeking sympathy for his underdog status, instead of knocking him for not winning and achieving favorites like his peers

[3ball]

I retract the "modern era" comment:

MJ was infact more unbeatable because the bulls never lost in a full MJ season once they started winning, or upon becoming a 1 or 2 seed.. whereas Russell lost twice after becoming a good team/champion/1 or 2 seed..

[bigkingsfan]

Imagine trying to argue ordan is more unbeatable than the guy winning 11/13 in the years he was in the league

[sdot_thadon]

Imagine bragging about a team that was breaking down. When you were clear favorites. After getting your ass handed three times straight.

"The Bulls have little excuse not to beat the Pistons this year. Unlike in their previous three encounters, Chicago has many factors in its favor, like these:

*Home-court advantage. In Jordan's career, the Bulls are 4-0 in series in which they have had the home-court edge. The Pistons have lost five consecutive games in Chicago, including three during last year's playoffs. And the Bulls are undefeated (5-0) at home during the playoffs this year.

*Health. Chicago has not played since last Tuesday; the Pistons just finished off the Celtics on Friday night in Game 6, in overtime by 117-113. Except for the normal bumps and bruises of May, the Bulls are healthy. Jordan is nursing tendinitis in his left knee, but that didn't stop him from averaging 33.4 points in Chicago's second-round playoff series against the 76ers. Bulls forward Horace Grant is bothered by an eye irritation, but he also played well against Philadelphia.

(Meanwhile, the Pistons' training room should have a "no vacancy" sign on it. Although he played brilliantly Friday, All-Star point guard Isiah Thomas is hobbled by a sprained foot, a pulled hamstring and a surgically repaired left wrist that has not fully healed. Thomas did not start the last three games of the Celtics series, and he may not start Sunday. Both Joe Dumars, tendinitis in both knees, and Vinnie Johnson, bruised right shin are playing with nagging injuries.)"

with the dagger!