Have you ever considered that free will doesn't exist? (NOT pre-destination)

[Ben Simmons 25]

I've pretty much acccepted that idea for a few years now. Sam Harris talks a lot about this. It also doesn't really matter because we feel as though we do have it. It does have a great implications for our criminal justice system though.

Google Robert Sapolsky. He knows a lot about behavior and the brain and he talks about this. This basically means no criminal is truely responsible for their crimes. We still need to put these people in prison but it should make us think about words like punishment. Why would we punish someone for a behavior they can't control?

I think maybe our prisons shouldn't be about punishment. Seeing as that doesn't really correct behavior anyway. We should be figuring out way to help these people that can't help themselves.

Sam Harris spoke on this? Interesting. Will check that out. Whether we're right or we're wrong, you seem to "get it" more than anyone that has commented in the thread thus far.

As far as criminals go... I think they present a solid argument that should be easier to demonstrate the idea behind this.

Take Charles Manson... supposedly he was rallying other children around him as early as kindergarten or 1st grade or some shit to beat up specific targets. You can't make any argument in the world that's going to convince me that a kid that young has a choice. And given that he was already acting that way at that age, can we really "blame" him as an adult, in the manner of which you speak? I think the answer is no, but people are super uncomfortable with that. They're super uncomfortable with this entire idea, tbh.

[highwhey]

I'm not talking about defying physics. I'm saying that a two year old's personality is 100% derived from genetics and environmental factors such as having a single parent, both parents, no parents, and how those parents raise them, how well off they are, how much they commit to raising them, etc... a whole plethora of factors, none of which have anything to do with what the two year old has chosen, because he/she chooses nothing. And if that's true for a two year old, at what point do people take the wheel?

i agree, we are the product of genetics and environment. most people are, but, people have proved that they need not follow that same trajectory or path as their parents/guardians.

plenty of successful people throughout history were brought up in poor households. they broke the cycle. plenty of people break the cycle in different ways. in doing so, they proved that free will is very much real and not an illusion.

[Ben Simmons 25]

i agree, we are the product of genetics and environment. most people are, but, people have proved that they need not follow that same trajectory or path as their parents/guardians.

plenty of successful people throughout history were brought up in poor households. they broke the cycle. plenty of people break the cycle in different ways. in doing so, they proved that free will is very much real and not an illusion.

Ok, but who's to say that there wasn't even just a SINGLE environmental factor or a SINGLE genetic variance that resulted in them "choosing" another path? It's impossible to prove. But if you examine it extremely deeply and you really sit back and truly examine your own thoughts and actions, it seems to become self evident. That being said, I wouldn't recommend diving too deep into this hole. Existential thought isn't super healthy, tbh. But it's my favorite.

[highwhey]

Ok, but who's to say that there wasn't even just a SINGLE environmental factor or a SINGLE genetic variance that resulted in them "choosing" another path? It's impossible to prove. But if you examine it extremely deeply and you really sit back and truly examine your own thoughts and actions, it seems to become self evident. That being said, I wouldn't recommend diving too deep into this hole. Existential thought isn't super healthy, tbh. But it's my favorite.

i've read works about existentialism. the stranger by camus was one i liked, but it's self explanatory bc it's absurd to think of life like that. i understand people like to deep dive into thoughts and explore them in depth, but it seems so shallow to consider existentialism as an intellectual theme. it's not. and i hate people that consider themselves intellectuals bc they sit around questioning their own lives.

it's called being depressed and not having anything meaningful going on in your life. healthy minded people don't spend a significant amount of time pondering existentialism. if you want to engage in intellectual discussions, why not do so with something that can benefit your family or community? look at engineering videos and such. if you want to keep in the philosophy family, there are plenty of philosophies that won't lead you to suicide.

i feel like i am the only individual with common sense when i hear someone try to talk about existentialism.

[Ben Simmons 25]

i've read works about existentialism. the stranger by camus was one i liked, but it's self explanatory bc it's absurd to think of life like that. i understand people like to deep dive into thoughts and explore them in depth, but it seems so shallow to consider existentialism as an intellectual theme. it's not. and i hate people that consider themselves intellectuals bc they sit around questioning their own lives.

it's called being depressed and not having anything meaningful going on in your life. healthy minded people don't spend a significant amount of time pondering existentialism. if you want to engage in intellectual discussions, why not do so with something that can benefit your family or community? look at engineering videos and such. if you want to keep in the philosophy family, there are plenty of philosophies that won't lead you to suicide.

i feel like i am the only individual with common sense when i hear someone try to talk about existentialism.

I'm not depressed and I can't foresee a series of events that results in me ever killing myself. If you don't like discussing existentialism, you should never have clicked on the thread. You can go be unpleasant in another thread just fine.

[highwhey]

I'm not depressed and I can't foresee a series of events that results in me ever killing myself. If you don't like discussing existentialism, you should never have clicked on the thread. You can go be unpleasant in another thread just fine.

you yourself said it, it isn't healthy.

what benefits can be gained by spending more time on this subject? each time you ponder this, you lose value for your own life. how is that helpful to you?

[Ben Simmons 25]

you yourself said it, it isn't healthy.

what benefits can be gained by spending more time on this subject? each time you ponder this, you lose value for your own life. how is that helpful to you?

There are certain questions of which I obsessively desire to know the answers. I really enjoy knowing how things work in general.

[highwhey]

alright. i wasn't aiming to be unpleasant, i kind of just when off on a rant for no reason.

[Ben Simmons 25]

alright. i wasn't aiming to be unpleasant, i kind of just when off on a rant for no reason.

All good, much love.

[highwhey]

All good, much love.

[tpols]

Sam Harris spoke on this? Interesting. Will check that out. Whether we're right or we're wrong, you seem to "get it" more than anyone that has commented in the thread thus far.

As far as criminals go... I think they present a solid argument that should be easier to demonstrate the idea behind this.

Take Charles Manson... supposedly he was rallying other children around him as early as kindergarten or 1st grade or some shit to beat up specific targets. You can't make any argument in the world that's going to convince me that a kid that young has a choice. And given that he was already acting that way at that age, can we really "blame" him as an adult, in the manner of which you speak? I think the answer is no, but people are super uncomfortable with that. They're super uncomfortable with this entire idea, tbh.

charles manson also grew up in youth prisons as a runt where he had to develop his ruthlessness and wit just to survive... another example of inputs and outputs. Thats all we are.

[tpols]

plenty of successful people throughout history were brought up in poor households. they broke the cycle. .

that doesnt prove free will... thats just proves there is a very wide spectrum of outcomes that can happen to anybody, with your examples falling on the outlier end of the scales.

Have you ever seen the movei butterfly effect with ashton kutcher? or read about quantum theory. einstein knew we overestimate our level of control.

[Ben Simmons 25]

charles manson also grew up in youth prisons as a runt where he had to develop his ruthlessness and wit just to survive... another example of inputs and outputs. Thats all we are.

Yeah I mean I don't know Manson's history, but... that doesn't surprise me in the least.

[sammichoffate]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fatalism

[JEFFERSON MONEY]

Qadr (destiny) is true. Do some research on what it entails.