Lebron's chance at GOAT ended in 2011

[TheCorporation]

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[SamuraiSWISH]

I've used Kobe a lot before for these types of discussions because of his unique career arc. He had the least amount of help during his peak (2006 and 2007), but had a ton of help early on in his career and at the end of his prime.

So his winning years are overrated to me but his losing years (peak) are a little underrated for me.

I can agree with that. He has an awkward career. For a superstar at least. That

[Dray n Klay]

Did Jordan's chance at GOAT end in 1986 then?

[FKAri]

Terrible example. McGrady and Kobe were far closer in peak skill and effectiveness than Paul & Jones.

I didn't say titles/accomplishments are the only thing that matters. I said they matter a hell of a lot when considering all time ranking. And they do. And there's context to these things. There isn't a simple formula you can follow to tell you who deserves to be ranked where. You have to take everything into consideration about their level of play, circumstances, careers, etc...

But let's say that Kobe spends his career with a bum ass franchise and walks away with 0 titles, you really think he ends up much further ahead on the all time list of McGrady? Hell ****ing no. The only reason he'd even be further up would be longevity and that's literally it.

I think we're in agreement. Just that you're talking about what people think and I'm arguing for what I and most likely you, think.

It's not Kobe's rings with Pau that put him over but the sustained excellence throughout different rosters and circumstances that proved that he was a better scorer and defender than TMac ever showed. TMac was close but Kobe was better. Maybe if TMac's career continued and he evolved into a better player (I doubt better than what Kobe showed) he'd be closer.

This is also why I rank Bird over Magic. Bird was just better to me. But Magic won 5 rings and wasn't set back by injuries to the extent Bird was and thus had some better years towards the end. But it doesn't factor in because Bird already proved a certain level to me. I just need the proof. Longevity and winning helps a lot but it's not required.

I can agree with that. He has an awkward career. For a superstar at least. That’s why it’s so much easier for people to say LeBron is both better, and greater than him. He didn’t have as dramatic dips in success team wise, or individually throughout his career.

I also rate Lebron over Kobe for similar reasons. Lebron's harder to build around than Kobe and joining Wade is a horrendous fit but I don't really hold that against him (though the fit thing is a factor). If you do put the pieces around Lebron (which isn't too hard anyway), he's more impactful than Kobe. But I don't really want to debate Kobe/Lebron. So agree to disagree to whoever wants to start that debate.

[ClipperRevival]

It's not just 2011. It was pre-determined at birth. LeBron certainly had the raw, physical tools to be on that MJ tier. But he lacked that killer will. That desire to destroy the opponent every time he stepped on the court. That's why 2011 happened. That's why 2010 vs Boston happened. That's why he didn't join the dunk contest when he said he would. That's why he did so many other things that made you cringe. He just wasn't a true killer. If he was, he would've been much closer to MJ. But he wasn't. That simple.

[TheCorporation]

It's not just 2011. It was pre-determined at birth. LeBron certainly had the raw, physical tools to be on that MJ tier. But he lacked that killer will. That desire to destroy the opponent every time he stepped on the court. That's why 2011 happened. That's why 2010 vs Boston happened. That's why he didn't join the dunk contest when he said he would. That's why he did so many other things that made you cringe. He just wasn't a true killer. If he was, he would've been much closer to MJ. But he wasn't. That simple.

Um

[SouBeachTalents]

It's not just 2011. It was pre-determined at birth. LeBron certainly had the raw, physical tools to be on that MJ tier. But he lacked that killer will. That desire to destroy the opponent every time he stepped on the court. That's why 2011 happened. That's why 2010 vs Boston happened. That's why he didn't join the dunk contest when he said he would. That's why he did so many other things that made you cringe. He just wasn't a true killer. If he was, he would've been much closer to MJ. But he wasn't. That simple.

LeBron was always so inconsistent with his approach to the end of games. Far too often he'd be content with being passive and not being involved. A big reason why I think he's been so fcking amazing in elimination games is, it forces him to go into survival mode and play very aggressively, which is why he always seems to have his highest scoring games with his season on the brink. It just never translated to him doing that on a regular basis

[FKAri]

It's not just 2011. It was pre-determined at birth. LeBron certainly had the raw, physical tools to be on that MJ tier. But he lacked that killer will. That desire to destroy the opponent every time he stepped on the court. That's why 2011 happened. That's why 2010 vs Boston happened. That's why he didn't join the dunk contest when he said he would. That's why he did so many other things that made you cringe. He just wasn't a true killer. If he was, he would've been much closer to MJ. But he wasn't. That simple.

His will is fine. One doesn't need to be a killer outwardly to be a killer on the court. There's many examples of this in other sports, even basketball. One can succeed with plenty of personality approaches. Lebron's problem is a natural scoring instinct. He doesn't have it. Nor does he have the skillset to overcome great defenses. When I say all this I ofcourse mean, relative to Jordan. Ofcourse he's a great scorer, very skilled, etc. But on that all-time level that is his missing piece. And it's not due to lack of effort. It's on a talent level.

[ClipperRevival]

LeBron was always so inconsistent with his approach to the end of games. Far too often he'd be content with being passive and not being involved. A big reason why I think he's been so fcking amazing in elimination games is, it forces him to go into survival mode and play very aggressively, which is why he always seems to have his highest scoring games with his season on the brink. It just never translated to him doing that on a regular basis

Yes sir.

[ClipperRevival]

His will is fine. One doesn't need to be a killer outwardly to be a killer on the court. There's many examples of this in other sports, even basketball. One can succeed with plenty of personality approaches. Lebron's problem is a natural scoring instinct. He doesn't have it. Nor does he have the skillset to overcome great defenses. When I say all this I ofcourse mean, relative to Jordan. Ofcourse he's a great scorer, very skilled, etc. But on that all-time level that is his missing piece. And it's not due to lack of effort. It's on a talent level.

True.

But he's had instances where you could clearly see he wanted none of the action, like 2010 vs Boston and 2011. But yes, you are so right. He just lacked the SKILL to consistently score in a grind it out, playoff serious, in half court sets. No mid-range game, no back to the basket game, no triple threat game, etc. Just fundamental stuff you need in playoff bball, something MJ mastered.

So yeah, it's a combo of both I would say. But great point.

[StrongLurk]

His will is fine. One doesn't need to be a killer outwardly to be a killer on the court. There's many examples of this in other sports, even basketball. One can succeed with plenty of personality approaches. Lebron's problem is a natural scoring instinct. He doesn't have it. Nor does he have the skillset to overcome great defenses. When I say all this I ofcourse mean, relative to Jordan. Ofcourse he's a great scorer, very skilled, etc. But on that all-time level that is his missing piece. And it's not due to lack of effort. It's on a talent level.

Wouldn't go that far, even if you are comparing to Jordan.

Lebron simply isn't as pure skilled a scorer as MJ or even Kobe...but the thing about basketball is size and athleticism count no matter what...not just skill.

Lebron has demolished tons of great defenses over his career. But yeah, Jordan is the greatest scorer ever because he had great scoring skills along with freak athleticism. Lebron simply has good scoring skills with freak athleticism.

Honestly, I think Kobe could have been as good as MJ if he had the same athleticism...of course guys like Curry would be GOAT if they were freak athletes.

[ClipperRevival]

Um

Sup Nick Wright.

[FKAri]

Wouldn't go that far, even if you are comparing to Jordan.

Lebron simply isn't as pure skilled a scorer as MJ or even Kobe...but the thing about basketball is size and athleticism count no matter what...not just skill.

Lebron has demolished tons of great defenses over his career. But yeah, Jordan is the greatest scorer ever because he had great scoring skills along with freak athleticism. Lebron simply has good scoring skills with freak athleticism.

Honestly, I think Kobe could have been as good as MJ if he had the same athleticism...of course guys like Curry would be GOAT if they were freak athletes.

Lebron's skills aren't even suited to his body. He is so overwhelmingly athletic that it works. But Lebron's the type of dude who when he sees a 6'2'' PG on him will turn and try to blow by him. In fact he will try to blow by anyone. When it fails he will try to body his defender and get him off balance and use that room to blow by him. If that fails he will take a dribble and step to the side jumper. This is 80% of his iso offense from the top of the key which in and of itself is 80% of his iso starting point. In motion he's great. He's incredible. He's creative, has great touch, can go either direction. Can see the floor. Everything. But he needs to be on the run to do any of this. And for someone 6'8'' 260 that shouldn't be your primary mode of attack.

[TheCorporation]

Sup Nick Wright.

These discussions can become a lot easier when you put aside your Jordan shoes and emotions and usual factual information.

It is what's known as an unbiased, pragmatic approach.

How many pairs of Jordan's do you own?

[sdot_thadon]

His will is fine. One doesn't need to be a killer outwardly to be a killer on the court. There's many examples of this in other sports, even basketball. One can succeed with plenty of personality approaches. Lebron's problem is a natural scoring instinct. He doesn't have it. Nor does he have the skillset to overcome great defenses. When I say all this I ofcourse mean, relative to Jordan. Ofcourse he's a great scorer, very skilled, etc. But on that all-time level that is his missing piece. And it's not due to lack of effort. It's on a talent level.

Great post, however his natural scoring instincts are fine. They just aren't primary. One of the biggest things people miss about Lebron, especially in regards to Mj is they play with 2 different minds. When I say that I'm no referring to the cookie cutter "killer instinct" bs fans of volume scorers lean on either. It's the mental approach to each moment on the floor. There are cerebral guys who sort of analyze and look for possibilities and then there's reactive players who see and attack. Not saying that cerebral guys don't attack or that reactive guys don't think. One can actually be both in the same game at times but the instinct is what you will do most.

Mj and Dream were the 2 best reactive players I've ever seen. They had speed and footwork advantages over pretty much anyone who tried to check them so they could just attack on the catch and adjust as needed. 2nd 3peat Mj was more cerebral, you could just see the difference in the thought process. Maybe because his athleticism was wanning or whatever it may be.

Lebron on the other hand was almost always thinking the game, analyzing what he saw. In that sense he viewed the game like a much inferior athlete but at times he could be devastating once he went reactive. This guy used to stand at the 3point line and blow by guys with a basic dribble regularly. Maybe the fact that he saw more sophisticated defenses necessitated the analysis or that's just how he was wired. But he's not the only great to think the game on the floor, maybe the best to ever play that way.