Lebron's chance at GOAT ended in 2011

[ClipperRevival]

Great post, however his natural scoring instincts are fine. They just aren't primary. One of the biggest things people miss about Lebron, especially in regards to Mj is they play with 2 different minds. When I say that I'm no referring to the cookie cutter "killer instinct" bs fans of volume scorers lean on either. It's the mental approach to each moment on the floor. There are cerebral guys who sort of analyze and look for possibilities and then there's reactive players who see and attack. Not saying that cerebral guys don't attack or that reactive guys don't think. One can actually be both in the same game at times but the instinct is what you will do most.

Mj and Dream were the 2 best reactive players I've ever seen. They had speed and footwork advantages over pretty much anyone who tried to check them so they could just attack on the catch and adjust as needed. 2nd 3peat Mj was more cerebral, you could just see the difference in the thought process. Maybe because his athleticism was wanning or whatever it may be.

Lebron on the other hand was almost always thinking the game, analyzing what he saw. In that sense he viewed the game like a much inferior athlete but at times he could be devastating once he went reactive. This guy used to stand at the 3point line and blow by guys with a basic dribble regularly. Maybe the fact that he saw more sophisticated defenses necessitated the analysis or that's just how he was wired. But he's not the only great to think the game on the floor, maybe the best to ever play that way.

That's cute and all but when it comes down to it, when you're "the man" in a playoff series and you're facing a half court D that's set and you need to create a shot in the 4th, LeBron simply lacked the consistent SKILLS to create his own shot. It's that simple. You can talk about mentality or mindset or whatever you want but he lacked it.

He had so many flaws SKILL WISE. And that's why he wasn't near MJ. Like FaKari said, his bread & butter if he couldn't get past his man via a dribble drive was a step back jumper most of the time. That is NOT how you get buckets in half court sets. You should have more in your arsenal. Like a mid-range game, triple threat game, post game, etc. All SKILLS he lacked.

It wasn't just about lack of WILL for LeBron but a lack of SKILL too.

[Dray n Klay]

That's cute and all but when it comes down to it, when you're "the man" in a playoff series and you're facing a half court D that's set and you need to create a shot in the 4th, LeBron simply lacked the consistent SKILLS to create his own shot. It's that simple. You can talk about mentality or mindset or whatever you want but he lacked it.

He had so many flaws SKILL WISE. And that's why he wasn't near MJ. Like FaKari said, his bread & butter if he couldn't get past his man via a dribble drive was a step back jumper most of the time. That is NOT how you get buckets in half court sets. You should have more in your arsenal. Like a mid-range game, triple threat game, post game, etc. All SKILLS he lacked.

It wasn't just about lack of WILL for LeBron but a lack of SKILL too.

Yet all that skill and MJ STILL went 1-9?

[TheCorporation]

Yet all that skill and MJ STILL went 1-9?

He had the Killer Instinct to make sure they acquired Scottie Pippen

[sdot_thadon]

That's cute and all but when it comes down to it, when you're "the man" in a playoff series and you're facing a half court D that's set and you need to create a shot in the 4th, LeBron simply lacked the consistent SKILLS to create his own shot. It's that simple. You can talk about mentality or mindset or whatever you want but he lacked it.

He had so many flaws SKILL WISE. And that's why he wasn't near MJ. Like FaKari said, his bread & butter if he couldn't get past his man via a dribble drive was a step back jumper most of the time. That is NOT how you get buckets in half court sets. You should have more in your arsenal. Like a mid-range game, triple threat game, post game, etc. All SKILLS he lacked.

It wasn't just about lack of WILL for LeBron but a lack of SKILL too.

Umm yeah, likewise that's cute and all but in Lebron's absolute prime none of what you just said was an issue. Sure as his athleticism declined slowly over the past few years he's rearranged how he attacks the game but what i said stands.

[SamuraiSWISH]

That's cute and all but when it comes down to it, when you're "the man" in a playoff series and you're facing a half court D that's set and you need to create a shot in the 4th, LeBron simply lacked the consistent SKILLS to create his own shot. It's that simple. You can talk about mentality or mindset or whatever you want but he lacked it.

He had so many flaws SKILL WISE. And that's why he wasn't near MJ. Like FaKari said, his bread & butter if he couldn't get past his man via a dribble drive was a step back jumper most of the time. That is NOT how you get buckets in half court sets. You should have more in your arsenal. Like a mid-range game, triple threat game, post game, etc. All SKILLS he lacked.

It wasn't just about lack of WILL for LeBron but a lack of SKILL too.

Bingo.

Not to mention dude is flat out wrong. Doc Rivers straight up said, LeBron didn

[Bawkish]

at TheCorporation & Dray begging for attention

[Soundwave]

That's cute and all but when it comes down to it, when you're "the man" in a playoff series and you're facing a half court D that's set and you need to create a shot in the 4th, LeBron simply lacked the consistent SKILLS to create his own shot. It's that simple. You can talk about mentality or mindset or whatever you want but he lacked it.

He had so many flaws SKILL WISE. And that's why he wasn't near MJ. Like FaKari said, his bread & butter if he couldn't get past his man via a dribble drive was a step back jumper most of the time. That is NOT how you get buckets in half court sets. You should have more in your arsenal. Like a mid-range game, triple threat game, post game, etc. All SKILLS he lacked.

It wasn't just about lack of WILL for LeBron but a lack of SKILL too.

Yeah I'd agree with this. LeBron is a heckuva player but he isn't the most skilled guy by any means, his half court game lacks in a lot of ways and is at times shockingly limited. Foot work is also not exactly the greatest either.

It's not just him not having a "killer instinct" at times, a lot of it is he simply never bothered to develop a lot of his skills.

Too much ego, he didn't want to change the way he played.

[Celtics 1825]

I don't think that 2011 completely ended his chances at GOAT, but those finals as well as the 2010 ECSF left a black mark on his legacy that he hasn't been able to fully recover from. Since 2011 up until this year he's been amazing of course, but in order to be GOAT he would've to win at least 1 more title and not lose by a record margin twice. Him missing the playoffs this year certainly doesn't help either. However with all that said he's still top 5 absolutely.

[tpols]

Level of play isn't all that matters.

Awards and titles play a huge ****ing part in legacy.

You really think, to use an obvious example, that Kobe Bryant was 20-30+ spots on the all time list better than Tracy McGrady if you strip away all accomplishments and titles and just look at level of play? **** out of here with that bullshit. They were back and forth, neck and neck, as players at their peaks for multiple years.

You have to take everything into account. There is no simple answer. But I will tell you, accomplishments and titles matter a hell of a lot when we start evaluating hair splitting at the top.

If McGrady gets drafted by the Lakers and Kobe stays with Charlotte, you think their all time rankings are so drastically different in favor of Kobe still? Please eh, **** outta here with that bullshit.

Mcgrady was washed up by like '06, while Kobe was still peaking. Bad analogy.

[Manny98]

Jordan had a 2011 like chokejob against the Pistons in 89 so by OPs logic Jordans chance at surpassing Kareem ended in 1989

[Manny98]

I don't think that 2011 completely ended his chances at GOAT, but those finals as well as the 2010 ECSF left a black mark on his legacy that he hasn't been able to fully recover from. Since 2011 up until this year he's been amazing of course, but in order to be GOAT he would've to win at least 1 more title and not lose by a record margin twice. Him missing the playoffs this year certainly doesn't help either. However with all that said he's still top 5 absolutely.

Nah he redeemed himself with the most dominant 6 year run of any player ever from 2012-2017

2 MVPs
3 championships
6 finals appearances
DPOY (runner up but LeBron got screwed)
2 GOAT finals performances in 16 & 17
Had the greatest regular season of all time in 2013 (should have been unanimous MVP if it wasn't for that hater for voting Melo)
Ended Clevelands 50 year championship drought and slaying a 73 win team in the process

[SpaceJam2]

Nah he redeemed himself with the most dominant 6 year run of any player ever from 2012-2017

2 MVPs
3 championships
6 finals appearances
DPOY (runner up but LeBron got screwed)
2 GOAT finals performances in 16 & 17
Had the greatest regular season of all time in 2013 (should have been unanimous MVP if it wasn't for that hater for voting Melo)
Ended Clevelands 50 year championship drought and slaying a 73 win team in the process

This 6-years alone is probably more impressive than anything Jordan did for his entire career, and that is saying a lot.

[FKAri]

This 6-years alone is probably more impressive than anything Jordan did for his entire career, and that is saying a lot.

It was greater than Newton's run from '65 to '67 imo.

[StrongLurk]

I disagree with the 2010 Lebron comments. Him losing that series to the Celtics is exactly what should have happened. Lebron also performed below his standards the last 3 games of that series...but that isn't a major black mark on his legacy. Kobe also struggled mightily against the 08/10 Celtics as well, getting embarrassed in 08 and barely squeaking by in 2010, but his play wasn't top 10 of all time level.

2011 is the absolute black mark of Lebron's career. Heat should have won the series against the Mavs and would have if Lebron played to his usual standard.

[SouBeachTalents]

I disagree with the 2010 Lebron comments. Him losing that series to the Celtics is exactly what should have happened. Lebron also performed below his standards the last 3 games of that series...but that isn't a major black mark on his legacy. Kobe also struggled mightily against the 08/10 Celtics as well, getting embarrassed in 08 and barely squeaking by in 2010, but his play wasn't top 10 of all time level.

2011 is the absolute black mark of Lebron's career. Heat should have won the series against the Mavs and would have if Lebron played to his usual standard.

Only Game 5 against Boston was truly 2011 level, he underperformed in that series but it was nothing extraordinary, he honestly played worse in the '07 Finals and the first few games against Boston in '08.

2010 is not even close to the level of 2011, to place them as equals is ridiculous