I don

[JEFFERSON MONEY]

So let me get this clear.

You guys think people cling on to religious beliefs because it gives them peace and sense of mind--and that it's an evolutionary product of "self-awareness?"

Okay.

So what is your stance on the VERACITY of those religious beliefs? Legitimate or illegitimate?

If you believe they are illegitimate, then that inadvertently means that you believe the others to be delusional in one way or another, UNLESS you believe in subjective Truths, where people's opinions are different.
If that's the case, then my bad for bearing false witness for you. But I don't believe in subjectivity. Some things are true irregardless of whose perspective it is.

When the question of God and religion comes up.
It doesn't MATTER if J$ says yes or Rolando says no.
Nothing that either/or thinks can change the Truth of it.

However, the question comes up do YOU Rolando think that religious people are liars: Here's your past post:

I am starting to think that belief in God is a built-in evolutionary consequence of self awareness. Humans need this to take the edge off. Otherwise, the reality of life is pretty harsh.

There's also a small percentage of us who simply don't have faith.....if we are indeed honest with ourselves. We are looking at life in its un-varnished state. We have to handle the intensity of our existence with the burden of full consciousness. It isn't always wonderful but that's the path that I must take.

I am true to myself. I have never had faith.

The way I read this (correct me if I'm mistaken) I interpreted this to mean that
a) it's a "need" like a coping mechanism, in your opinion. Not based on real investigation on the cosmos and coming to the conclusion that there is One Creator managing all things in the universe.
b) that you are "indeed honest with ourselves" implying that religious people aren't honest with themselves
c) taht you are "looking at life in its un-varnished state" as if your particular perspective is in tune with reality, and people of religion don't have that (people of religion believe in that which they can not see, which are also a part of spiritual realities)
d) "it isn't always wonderful" in other words... I look at reality the way it really is not sunshine and rainbows!!!!


Basically, what I am trying to say Rolando, is the way you wrote things demonstrates that you are calling religious people intellectually dishonest in some way--or yourself more intellectually honest.

Anyways, I appreciate that you are endorsing being honest and being true to ones' self with a respectful tone. That behavior is something other agnostics/atheists on the board can learn from.

Peace.

[RRR3]

Rolando was saying that people developed religion because they were aware that their time on this planet is limited and that everything must cease to exist, and that is a terrifying thought. Additionally he made sure to note that studies have shown that religion does bring people comfort.

I don’t think religion is inherently bad. I think people use it to justify atrocities. But simply having faith obviously brings deep comfort to many people.

That said I don’t believe in god personally. Agnostic is the best way to describe me.

[JEFFERSON MONEY]

Rolando was saying that people developed religion because they were aware that their time on this planet is limited and that everything must cease to exist, and that is a terrifying thought.

It is an incredibly terrifying thought, indeed. To thing life is finite.
It's a tightness in the chest and a pounding anxiousness that hurts.

We are taught the following (and more)
I. Belief in God. Meaning He is the Lord of all things--- all the clouds, trees, skies, winds, plants, earths, planets, skies, water droplets, animals, creatures, creation are in submission to His Will. In a particular order.

When we believe this, we realize that our Creator has, since the day we were born looked after us, making sure we had water, clothes, food, shelter, knowledge, skills, friends, family, life, breath, heartbeats and countless blessings. There is great peace in the heart knowing that An All-Powerful Creator is watching over us.

II. Accountability in the Hereafter---meaning if we believe and do righteous deeds, then we may be saved by God's Mercy.
Evidence?
The fact that every thing good is rewarded and evil things are punished (even in this world).

The fact that every single day children are starving and die, and every single day there are criminals who get to enjoy partying--- they will eventually meet their Recompense on the Last Day. The fact that there are people like you, RRR3, who are willing to sacrifice your lives and withstand pain to adhere to principles like justice---that's a huge difference from people who oppress others.

Those differences are going to be PRONOUNCED come the Afterlife--when people like Pharoah (who massacred Israelites) will be burning in Hell, and people like children who are killed in wars will be in Heaven inshallah.

Isn't it possible that The Almighty who created us has the power to bring us back to life?


[QUOTE]Additionally he made sure to note that studies have shown that religion does bring people comfort.

I don

[tpols]

It is an incredibly terrifying thought, indeed. To thing life is finite.
It's a tightness in the chest and a pounding anxiousness that hurts.

well it shouldnt be.

if you observe nature you see things are always changing, living, dying and being reborn.

it happens every year with the seasons, and on a macro level with life.

You think youll be you forever, but to many that is a ludicrous assumption.

There are widespread religions outside monotheism that rely on this principle. Just do the best you can to respect all life and stop being an arrogant human thinking only you will be judged by some higher force, and that you arent bound to the cyles and are some supremely unique ever lasting being.

As if you judge the millions of forces below you..

Let it go....

[Rolando]

The way I read this (correct me if I'm mistaken) I interpreted this to mean that
a) it's a "need" like a coping mechanism, in your opinion. Not based on real investigation on the cosmos and coming to the conclusion that there is One Creator managing all things in the universe.
b) that you are "indeed honest with ourselves" implying that religious people aren't honest with themselves
c) taht you are "looking at life in its un-varnished state" as if your particular perspective is in tune with reality, and people of religion don't have that (people of religion believe in that which they can not see, which are also a part of spiritual realities)
d) "it isn't always wonderful" in other words... I look at reality the way it really is not sunshine and rainbows!!!!


Basically, what I am trying to say Rolando, is the way you wrote things demonstrates that you are calling religious people intellectually dishonest in some way--or yourself more intellectually honest.

Anyways, I appreciate that you are endorsing being honest and being true to ones' self with a respectful tone. That behavior is something other agnostics/atheists on the board can learn from.

Peace.

I truly attempted to write what I wrote in the most fair way that I could. Yes, I see religion as a useful coping mechanism. You might find that a bit offensive but I still stand by that.

The intellectually dishonest part was more directed at myself and others like me. I can't fit myself into the framework of a conventional religion. It would be a psychologically unhealthy thing for me to do.

I hope people of faith can be more accepting of people without faith. It wasn't so long ago that a person like me would have been persecuted or killed. Things have definitely improved.

How much tolerance are you allowed to have within the framework of the Islamic Faith?

[coin24]

I truly attempted to write what I wrote in the most fair way that I could. Yes, I see religion as a useful coping mechanism. You might find that a bit offensive but I still stand by that.

The intellectually dishonest part was more directed at myself and others like me. I can't fit myself into the framework of a conventional religion. It would be a psychologically unhealthy thing for me to do.

I hope people of faith can be more accpeting of people without faith. It wasn't so long ago that a person like me would have been persecuted or killed. Things have definitely improved.

How much tolerance are you allowed to have within the framework of the Islamic Faith?

Zero tolerance.

[Rolando]

Hey J-Money,

You going to answer my question?

How much tolerance are you allowed to have within the framework of the Islamic Faith?

I am guessing that no answer means no tolerance.

[JEFFERSON MONEY]

Hey J-Money,

You going to answer my question?

How much tolerance are you allowed to have within the framework of the Islamic Faith?

I am guessing that no answer means no tolerance.

As for tolerance, well I personally work with Gays, Christians, Atheists, Agnostics, and people of all walks of life and I just be courteous and do my work with following the general principles and we find common ground on doing good things---i.e. helping students learn, seeking knowledge, giving charity, eating nutritious food, not harming others etc.

At the end of the day we are accountable for our own actions.

To answer your question more comprehensively..consider this link.

http://www.quranreading.com/blog/tol...-on-tolerance/

The city of Madinah was a place where people of all kinds lived peacefully and prospered.
Muslims in India, Pakistan and Bangladesh live peacefully with Hindus even though Hindus do the worst sin imaginable (i.e. worship idols).
Muslims in Albania, Bosnia, Kosovo also tolerate their Christian neighbors even though they commit the blasphemous lie of claiming God has a son and the other blasphemous lie of God being one of three. (naudhubillah min dhalik)
Even back in the times of the Caliphates, Umar Ibn Khattab (RA), who was considered a man of justice---someone the English based their civil law of (iirc) allowed Jews and Christians to practice their faith--even though their own Scriptures alluded to the coming of the Last Messenger, Muhammad (PBUH)--who they rejected.

[Rolando]

As for tolerance, well I personally work with Gays, Christians, Atheists, Agnostics, and people of all walks of life and I just be courteous and do my work with following the general principles and we find common ground on doing good things---i.e. helping students learn, seeking knowledge, giving charity, eating nutritious food, not harming others etc.

At the end of the day we are accountable for our own actions.

To answer your question more comprehensively..consider this link.

http://www.quranreading.com/blog/tol...-on-tolerance/

The city of Madinah was a place where people of all kinds lived peacefully and prospered.
Muslims in India, Pakistan and Bangladesh live peacefully with Hindus even though Hindus do the worst sin imaginable (i.e. worship idols).
Muslims in Albania, Bosnia, Kosovo also tolerate their Christian neighbors even though they commit the blasphemous lie of claiming God has a son and the other blasphemous lie of God being one of three. (naudhubillah min dhalik)
Even back in the times of the Caliphates, Umar Ibn Khattab (RA), who was considered a man of justice---someone the English based their civil law of (iirc) allowed Jews and Christians to practice their faith--even though their own Scriptures alluded to the coming of the Last Messenger, Muhammad (PBUH)--who they rejected.

That's pretty good actually. I even read your link.

If I am ever confronted by an intolerante Muslim...I have some quotes for them.

Theoretically, God (Allah) will take care of the punishing if punishing is due. Until Judgement...humble humans must be patient and have tolerance.

That has some logic to it.