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NBA Legend and Hall of Famer
Re: When did Lebron elevate a team of unestablished/young players to a championship?
Btw sdot,
Lebron didn't "elevate" his 2-seeded Cavs to a sweep in the 07' Finals - he he carried them, just like MJ carried a 6 seed to 6 games with the champs in 89' ECF
Neither cast was playing great basketball - lebron and mj simply carried those teams
Otoh, MJ elevated unestablished rookies to play great basketball in 1990 and 1991... championship basketball... Whereas lebron can't elevate players because his ball-dominant skillset turns guys into spot-up shooters, so he can only win with established guys that he team-hops to acquire
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Consensus, Cemented
Re: When did Lebron elevate a team of unestablished/young players to a championship?
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Le11th
Re: When did Lebron elevate a team of unestablished/young players to a championship?
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Consensus, Cemented
Re: When did Lebron elevate a team of unestablished/young players to a championship?
Originally Posted by superduper
Who was Bran's toughest opponent in the first 3 rounds (75% of the playoffs)?
You didn
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Embiid > Jokic
Re: When did Lebron elevate a team of unestablished/young players to a championship?
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NBA Legend and Hall of Famer
Re: When did Lebron elevate a team of unestablished/young players to a championship?
Originally Posted by superduper
Who was Bran's toughest opponent in the first 3 rounds (75% of the playoffs)?
The best team that Jordan faced in his conference that he didn't get swept by were the bad boy Pistons who had a lower SRS than the 2018 Raptors
So by your own logic 2018 Raptors > bad boy pistons
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The Mind Fvcker
Re: When did Lebron elevate a team of unestablished/young players to a championship?
Originally Posted by paksat
why are you arguing with manny 3ball?
that guys dumber than wheels which is incredible
And no one thought that would be possible.
ISH
Where Amazing happens!
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truth serum
Re: When did Lebron elevate a team of unestablished/young players to a championship?
I cut all the useless trash numbers out of your post to get to the meat of it.
Originally Posted by 3ball
Dwight in 09'
AI in 01'
Kidd in 02 and 03
So everyone was doing it in the 00"s decade, not just Lebron..
In 01 Philly had the dpoy, 6moy, 3 allstars.
in 02 and 03 Kidd had a future allstar in martin and also Jefferson but yeah they were young, so you'd actually have a valid point if they had to overcome any team remotely close to the pistons in 07. They played the pistons in their 1st conference finals appearance. The cavs faced them 2 nba finals appearances later and in their 5th straight conference finals appearance.
09 Magic had 3 allstars and hedo, arguably their most important guy on offense didn't make the team.
nice try.
Originally Posted by 3ball
Lebron had a 2 seed that got swept by the Spurs - that's weaker elevation than the 6th seeded bulls going 6 games versus the Bad Boys' in the 89' ECF
Well now that you mention it, Mj did have a chance to carry his team to an unlikely finals all the way back in 89. Faced the same scenario as Lebron tied 2-2 going into game 5 with a 1st ever finals berth on the line. I'm sure you know how Mj's game 5 went and how Lebron's game 5 went. One scored 25 of the last 30 in an alltimer and one shot 8 times and quit/disappeared whatever you want to frame it with. I'm sure a Jordan historian such as yourself knew this though.
Originally Posted by 3ball
Lebron never took a low seed deep in the playoffs, while his high seeds are swept and destroyed by record amount
(bulls were the only team to win 2 games off the 89' bad boys.. whereas the 07' Spurs only swept lebron)
I know you didnt actually watch Lebron's career as much as you obsess over him but I'll fill you in on a couple of things.
In 06 semis the Cavs had a chance to eliminate the Pistons and see dwade in the conference finals. They gave up like 4 or 5 offensive rebounds in the last minute of i think a one possession game.
In 08 Lebron's Cav's played down to wire in game 7 against the eventual champion Celtics, the ones that blew Kobe's Lakers off the face of the earth in the finals.
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NBA Legend and Hall of Famer
Re: When did Lebron elevate a team of unestablished/young players to a championship?
[
Originally Posted by sdot_thadon
Well now that you mention it, Mj did have a chance to carry his team to an unlikely finals all the way [COLOR="DarkRed"]back in 89.[/COLOR] Faced the same scenario as Lebron tied 2-2 going into game 5 with a 1st ever finals berth on the line. I'm sure you know how Mj's game 5 went and how Lebron's game 5 went.
Lebron had a 2-seed and was facing a weak 1 seed.. That doesn't compare to MJ's 6 seed facing a goat team
The fact that you compared the 2 shows that you're pretty naive about the game - no one knowledgeable would compare the 07' Pistons to the 89' Pistons
After MJ's rookie year, the weakest team he lost to was the Shaq/Penny Magic during his comeback season in 95' (bad boys and bird's Celtics were the only other losses).. So he never lost to a 53-win team or anyone as weak as the 07' Pistons... MJ's 86' Bulls would've beaten the 07' Pistons, let alone his other teams
Originally Posted by sdot_thadon
Well now that you mention it, Mj did have a chance [COLOR="DarkRed"]to carry his team to an unlikely finals[/COLOR] all the way back in 89
It wasn't just 1989
MJ wasn't suppose to make the Finals in 1990 either and Pippen's migraine made sure he didn't - but their 7 game showing against the Pistons showed they would've won the Finals, since the Pistons beat the Blazers in 5 easy games.. Pip's migraine prevented a goat carry-job ring and a 4-peat
(538 still views MJ's 1991 and 1993 rings as the weakest casts to ever win, aside from Dirk in 11' and Hakeem in 94'
Originally Posted by sdot_thadon
[COLOR="DarkRed"]In 08 Lebron's Cav's[/COLOR] played down to wire in game 7 against the eventual champion Celtics, the ones that blew Kobe's Lakers off the face of the earth in the finals.
Lebron in 2008 ECSF vs Celtics
26 ppg on 35%
So the 08' Cavs took the Celtics 7 games IN SPITE of lebron's horrid showing - their defense held the Celtics far below their normal averages and turned the series into a slow, grind-out series
Obviously, the Cavs win easily if lebron gets 26 on 45%... That's a pretty low bar, but lebron couldn't clear it.
Originally Posted by sdot_thadon
I know [COLOR="DarkRed"]you didnt actually watch Lebron's career[/COLOR] as much as you obsess over him but I'll fill you in on a couple of things.
[COLOR="Navy"]In 06 semis[/COLOR] the Cavs had a chance to eliminate the Pistons and see dwade in the conference finals. They gave up like 4 or 5 offensive rebounds in the last minute of i think a one possession game.
I watched Lebron avidly through the 11' Finals, and probably know his pre-decision career much better than you.
Regarding 2006 - lebron's 4 seed lost in the 2nd round - it's neither here nor there - MJ's runs in 89' and 90' are bigger carry jobs than anything Lebron ever did so who cares
Originally Posted by sdot_thadon
In 01 Philly had the dpoy, 6moy, 3 allstars.
in 02 and 03 Kidd had a future allstar in martin and also Jefferson but yeah they were young, so you'd actually have a valid point if they had to overcome any team remotely close to the pistons in 07. They played the pistons in their 1st conference finals appearance. The cavs faced them 2 nba finals appearances later and in their 5th straight conference finals appearance.
09 Magic had 3 allstars and hedo, arguably their most important guy on offense didn't make the team.
nice try.
- You're mistaken on the facts - Sixers didn't have 3 all-stars - they only had dikembe, who was a defensive player sharing 2nd option duties with Aaron McKie (Mo Williams >>>).. Everyone knew AI was carrying a weak roster on his back, which is why AI's stats matched or exceeded Lebron's
- You concede the Nets didn't have a good roster... Btw, they played the Ben Wallace Pistons, not the Chris Webber Pistons that lebron faced (a weak, 53-win 1 seed).. so your comparison of the nets/cavs comp is worthless
- Dwight's all-star PG was hurt and didn't play (jameer nelson), so the magic only had all-star Rashard Lewis, who is offset by all-star Mo Williams... Hedo sucked, especially in that series, and was inferior to 2-time all-star Zydrunas anyway
Ultimately, everyone knew the 01' Sixers, 03' Nets, 07' Cavs and 09' Magic had weak teams that would get blown away in the Finals - and they all did exactly that.. But even though weak casts were winning the East, Lebron couldn't win in 09/10, so he stacked the deck from 11-18'... I'm sure if 09' Dwight colluded with Wade/Bosh, he'd go at least 2/4 too.
.
Last edited by 3ball; 07-22-2019 at 06:18 PM.
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Banned
Re: When did Lebron elevate a team of unestablished/young players to a championship?
Soooo what was the best Finals team MJ beat?
Anyone available?
Just waiting for you to concede the GOAT argument once you do
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Le11th
Re: When did Lebron elevate a team of unestablished/young players to a championship?
Originally Posted by SpaceJam2
Soooo what was the best Finals team MJ beat?
Anyone available?
Just waiting for you to concede the GOAT argument once you do
So you admit only 25% of the playoffs was tougher for Bran whereas 75% of the playoffs was tougher for Jordan?
Thanks.
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Banned
Re: When did Lebron elevate a team of unestablished/young players to a championship?
Originally Posted by superduper
So you admit only 25% of the playoffs was tougher for Bran whereas 75% of the playoffs was tougher for Jordan?
Thanks.
De
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Le11th
Re: When did Lebron elevate a team of unestablished/young players to a championship?
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NBA Legend and Hall of Famer
Re: When did Lebron elevate a team of unestablished/young players to a championship?
Originally Posted by SpaceJam2
Soooo what was the best Finals team MJ beat?
Anyone available?
Just waiting for you to concede the GOAT argument once you do
If you deflect or ignore the following points, you're conceding the goat argument
1) Your question is unfair because it was a 2-star league in MJ's day - his championship record was unblemished in 2-star vs. 2-star matchups, while Lebron mostly loses today's 3-star vs. 3-star matchups in the super-team era.. So what's the most points that Lebron's 3rd option averaged compared to MJ's?.. This shows that Lebron had his OWN super-team to face his opponents, but simply played an inferior way and fielded inferior teams
2) Facing great teams doesn't prevent you from having great teams yourself that can compete evenly (like Bird's Celtics vs. Magic Lakers).. But Lebron ceded the best teams of his era to the Warriors and Spurs, who he is 2-5 against
3) Lebron was compensated for facing good Finals teams by getting a bunch of extra chances via a weak conference that allowed easy access to the Finals... Despite these extra chances, he only has 3 rings in 16 seasons
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Consensus, Cemented
Re: When did Lebron elevate a team of unestablished/young players to a championship?
Was MJ the best player in the league during his 17th season?
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