19' Giannis vs. 07' Lebron

[tpols]

when was giannis asked to not be able to shoot?

obviously he'll play his strengths and go for layups, but he has the ball in his hands all the time wide open.

gotta be able to shoot a little.

[Kblaze8855]

Nobody is asked not to be able to do anything. But offenses are designed to put you in certain places and do specific things. They arent freestyling out there usually. I saw him talking about it a while back. Wanting to shoot but that not being how the offense is designed. Hard to argue when they keep getting better and put up 118ppg so its not just....bad coaching. But hes been asked to do other things. The way he put it was he used to think like a guard now he thinks like a big...and he wants to go back to playing guard ball.

[superduper]

Id say atrophy is more the word. A lot of guys are like that. Lose the skills they came in with because they are asked to play differently. Tyson Chandler played some 3 as a rookie and used to shoot pullup jumpers. Mutombo could score as a rookie. A lot of these spot up shooters had handles in college and high school.

Use it or lose it.

This is exactly what it is.

I used to be a wet shooter, literally felt like i could score on any spot in the half court. Now I lost that and I'm more of a Pippen with the defending/playmaking/rebounding.

I could see it.

Also before, when these players were relatively unknown in terms of strengths and weaknesses at an NBA level, they could do whatever they wanted out there. Now they are gameplanned for so they have to pick the time and the spots correctly.

[3ball]

.
[COLOR="Navy"]22 yrs old - Lebron 07' Finals vs. SAS - 22/7/6 on 35.6 fg
23 yrs old - Lebron 08' ECSF vs. BOS - 26/6/8 on 35.5 fg[/COLOR]
[COLOR="DarkGreen"]24 yrs old - Giannis 19' ECF vs. TOR - 23/14/6 on 44.8 fg[/COLOR]

Honestly Lebron was better in 06 than he was in 07...and probably in 08 as well.

Lebron didn't become the best player in the league until he took another leap in 09.

I expect Giannis to take another leap in about 2 years.

The stats above clearly show that 19' Giannis is ahead of 07' and 08' Lebron..... and either close or equal to 09' Lebron..

09' Lebron didn't know how to win or play great team basketball any better than 19' Giannis - don't bs me - both the 09' Cavs and 19' Bucks were riding a wave of momentum and expected to beat the Magic/Raptors easily - the upset was a shock in both cases..

People only thought the Raptors' roster was better than the bucks AFTER the bucks lost .. before that, the talk was "ooh, Bledsoe, Lopez, Middleton - stacked"... there's plenty of ISH threads saying that ..

And Mo Williams was the only roster change when the Cavs improved from 45 wins in 2008, to 66 in 2009.. So he was killing it all year and people were HIGH on the all-star, who led the NBA in threes made per game... Accordingly, the Cavs were heavily favored against the Magic, who were starting AND1 star Rafer Alston in place of all-star Jameer Nelson..

Lebron's style simply didn't elevate teammates or allow them to thrive - Stan Van Gundy said the Cavs' lack of ball-movement and excessive lebron isolations made it easy on the Magic defense

[Kblaze8855]

High on him? All caps high?


Read this topic on Mo Williams vs Rodney Stuckey from 2009.....



http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/sho...d.php?t=139087

[SouBeachTalents]

High on him? All caps high?


Read this topic on Mo Williams vs Rodney Stuckey from 2009.....



http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/sho...d.php?t=139087

[3ball]

well he's regressed then... one of the ugliest jumpers in the league now. 6'11 rondo.

[COLOR="Blue"]Lebron actually has good form[/COLOR] and technique just seems to be shook sometimes.

Lebron doesn't have good form

- his elbow is out

- his touch is poor (occasionally shoots knuckballs with poor rotation)

- releases the ball off his middle and ring finger too much, instead of index finger

- his follow-throughs are forced and mechanical; it isn't a loose, natural motion for him, like Curry or MJ or other pure shooters.. maybe his arm is too muscular and suited for football more than basketball

- the ball gets in the way of his face, which forces awkward-angled fadeaways that aren't that accurate and have little or no elevation - like an old-school set shot

- his footwork isn't polished, which leads to less fluid jumpshooting and less capacity for attempts overall (less ways to get off a jumper than say, Kobe)


His form simply can't be called "good", unless we're only comparing him to bad shooters .

[StrongLurk]

.
[COLOR="Navy"]22 yrs old - Lebron 07' Finals vs. SAS - 22/7/6 on 35.6 fg
23 yrs old - Lebron 08' ECSF vs. BOS - 26/6/8 on 35.5 fg[/COLOR]
[COLOR="DarkGreen"]24 yrs old - Giannis 19' ECF vs. TOR - 23/14/6 on 44.8 fg[/COLOR]



The stats above clearly show that 19' Giannis is ahead of 07' and 08' Lebron..... and either close or equal to 09' Lebron..

09' Lebron didn't know how to win or play great team basketball any better than 19' Giannis - don't bs me - both the 09' Cavs and 19' Bucks were riding a wave of momentum and expected to beat the Magic/Raptors easily - the upset was a shock in both cases..

People only thought the Raptors' roster was better than the bucks AFTER the bucks lost .. before that, the talk was "ooh, Bledsoe, Lopez, Middleton - stacked"... there's plenty of ISH threads saying that ..

And Mo Williams was the only roster change when the Cavs improved from 45 wins in 2008, to 66 in 2009.. So he was killing it all year and people were HIGH on the all-star, who led the NBA in threes made per game... Accordingly, the Cavs were heavily favored against the Magic, who were starting AND1 star Rafer Alston in place of all-star Jameer Nelson..

Lebron's style simply didn't elevate teammates or allow them to thrive - Stan Van Gundy said the Cavs' lack of ball-movement and excessive lebron isolations made it easy on the Magic defense

09 Lebron clearly > 19 Giannis

09 Lebron is better than some versions of Jordan too.

You need more copy/paste.

[SouBeachTalents]

09 Lebron clearly > 19 Giannis

09 Lebron is better than some versions of Jordan too.

You need more copy/paste.

That doofus actually said Giannis' ECF was equal to '09 LeBron's

[3ball]

High on him? All caps high?


Read this topic on Mo Williams vs Rodney Stuckey from 2009.....



http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/sho...d.php?t=139087

Stuckey was a bricklayer with a rondo-like jumper and floor-spacing ability, while Mo led the NBA in threes per game...Spacing wasn't understood or valued like it is today, so I have no doubt that clueless ISH posters were hating on Mo.

But Mo's spacing helped the Cavs to 21 more wins - he was the only roster change, and his spacing style was ahead of it's time.. I've joked and called him a mini-curry.. that might sound funny, but Curry/Lebron probably win 70 games easy, since Mo/Lebron won 66..

Mo/Curry's combo style of play is infact optimal and a "70-game" style - Mo's impact would obviously be less today because everyone is playing that way now - there's a million mini-curry's out there... But back in 09', Mo's spacing was unique and therefore added more value (21 more wins and favorite status)... you guys simply aren't giving Mo enough credit, when all the evidence shows that he's responsible for the 21-win improvment

[3ball]

09 Lebron clearly > 19 Giannis

[COLOR="Blue"]09 Lebron is better than some versions of Jordan too.[/COLOR]

You need more copy/paste.

Only Wizards Jordan

No other version of MJ loses to Dwight with a 60-win, 1 seed and Dwight's cast was injured

Like, 98' MJ destroys Dwight .. he knew how to win too much (more than anyone in the modern era/3-pointer basketball) and would have those Cavs playing better than they did in RS

[Kblaze8855]

"Responsible" is a bit much. Go look at what they did when he went down for a month. They won 13 in a row and broke the streak the game he came back.

ISH was laughing about that quite a bit. People doing your usual "But when he played point guard....." Jordan thing talking about lebrons crazy numbers with Mo out. Talking about Lebron being the best point guard in the league and not Chris Paul or Steve Nash.

LeBron James says he doesn't want to have the ball in his hands all the time.

Really.

While detractors claim he sometimes dominates the ball too much as the rest of the Cavaliers stand around and watch, James really would rather not have to handle the ball a lot. But, since Mo Williams and Delonte West are out with injuries and Daniel Gibson missed the first half of Thursday's victory over Miami to attend to his pregnant fiancee, James had no choice but to play the point and run the offense.

"It's not something I always want to do because running the point guard is like playing quarterback," he said after Thursday's win. "I decided not to play quarterback in high school. I'd rather play wide receiver and get out in the open."

Oddly enough, since losing Williams with a sprained left shoulder and West with a fractured left ring finger in back-to-back games against Toronto and the Lakers, respectively, the Cavs are 7-0 and are scoring 102.3 points per game, a tad above their 101.1 season average. James has led the team in assists each of those games and is averaging about 10 a game, more than Williams (5.1) and West (2.9) combined.


"I'm kind of surprised at our scoring with those guys out," James admitted. "I haven't played this much point guard since my first or second year in the league when I had to really dominate the ball for us to be sucessful. So it isn't something I'm used to, but it is something I can do."

Cavaliers vs. New York Knicks

Tipoff: 7:30 p.m. Saturday, The Q.

TV/radio: Fox Sports Ohio; WTAM AM/1100.

Notable: Cavs have won a season-high 10 straight. Not only do they have the best record in the league, but they are also the hottest team. . . . They have won six straight against the Knicks, including a 100-91 victory Nov. 6 in New York. . . . Knicks playing the second game of a back-to-back after playing host to Milwaukee on Friday night. Eddy Curry was listed as out for that game with a sore left knee. . . . Knicks are 7-15 on the road.

-- Mary Schmitt Boyer

No kidding. Cavs coach Mike Brown didn't bat an eye when he learned Gibson would be late to the Miami game after taking his fiancee, R&B star Keyshia Cole, to the hospital with what turned out to be false labor. That left the Cavs without a point guard for the start of Thursday's game. But James filled in admirably, as did Anthony Parker.

"We just kind of take on whatever challenge is in front of us," Brown said. "To miss all three of them, we knew we had a chance to still be OK because those guys are capable ball-handlers. We don't really need a true point guard all the time when we are out on the floor with as good a ball-handler as AP or LeBron and the rest of the guys."

As usual, James will do whatever it takes to help his team win, but even he is a little surprised how well things have gone.

"I make a sacrifice on my shot attempts for us to get easy baskets, for us to push the ball and get into our sets," he said. "I just play the right way. I was always taught to play that way as a kid and I've always been that way. I'm trying to will wins.

"We want just want to hold the fort until our guys get back. We're missing two key guys in Delonte and Mo. It is impressive. You take two point guards off any team in this league and they automatically go down. It just shows the depth and the willpower we have to step up."


For the record: TNT broadcaster Charles Barkley said during Thursday's broadcast that James is the best player in the world.

"Let me reiterate this because there is some discussion in the world," he said. "LeBron James is the best player in whole world to me and anyone who knows anything about basketball. Kobe Bryant has a lot more help. Even without Mo Williams and Delonte West, the Cavaliers keep rolling because of one guy. LeBron James is that good. If you gave him Pau Gasol, Andrew Bynum and Lamar Odom, they'd be 72-10 (tying the all-time best single season record.)"

Lot of those articles from those days.

Mo Williams was getting laughed at by a lot of people and called overrated for just making the all star team.

Right or wrong....people in general were not that high on him. Especially after he got hurt and the Cavs were just fine if not better.

[3ball]

"Responsible" is a bit much. Go look at what they did when he went down for a month. They won 13 in a row and broke the streak the game he came back.

ISH was laughing about that quite a bit. People doing your usual "But when he played point guard....." Jordan thing talking about lebrons crazy numbers with Mo out. Talking about Lebron being the best point guard in the league and not Chris Paul or Steve Nash.







Lot of those articles from those days.

Mo Williams was getting laughed at by a lot of people and called overrated for just making the all star team.

Right or wrong....people in general were not that high on him. Especially after he got hurt and the Cavs were just fine if not better.

A lot of 1st time all-stars are ridiculed by local fans of the team or haters nationwide, but that's the minority - the majority opinion is that they're playing on a star level, so they're all-stars, which is better than not being one

Mo Williams was no different than fellow sniper Chris Middleton this year, except Mo's stats were better - both were first-time all-stars and the 2nd-biggest contributors on a 60-win team (except Mo's contribution was bigger)

And thats great that Lebron had a good stretch of games - a lot of guys do (he also played teams that averaged 34 wins during that stretch, so lottery teams)...

Furthermore, Lebron improved more from 04' to 05' than he did from 08' to 09', and the 05' improvement resulted in 7 more wins - so how many more wins for his lesser 09' improvement? 4 wins? 5?..

The reality is that Mo's "mini Curry" style fit well with Bron and the extra spacing was ahead of it's time, which accounted for most of the win increase.. Mo wouldn't add this value to any team today, because everyone has their "Curry" game on and adds the same value

Btw, adding Ray Allen in 13' also resulted in 66 wins, and that's actually an indication how much lebron-ball limits a team's ceiling (mo = 66 wins... wade/bosh/ray = 66 wins.. lol)..

And it's always been a weakness imo that Mo Williams adds more value to a lebron team than Antawn Jamison or Bosh or Love.. it's a big weakness in his game and explains why he won less than other guys, despite all the help anyone could ask for
.

[Kblaze8855]

Mo Williams was more....Jameer Nelson. One of those guys who gets "Pretty good" status but doesnt justify talking about 10 years later.

I might actually take Jameer Nelson but a lot of that was his unusual connection with Dwight probably making me feel he was a better playmaker than he was.

[3ball]

Mo Williams was more....Jameer Nelson. One of those guys who gets "Pretty good" status but doesnt justify talking about 10 years later.

I might actually take Jameer Nelson but a lot of that was his unusual connection with Dwight probably making me feel he was a better playmaker than he was.

Jameer Nelson didn't play in the 09' ECF

The talent levels were close in that series but Lebron simply pulled the classic case of getting stats without good team basketball where the ball moves instead of sticks

The ball stuck for the Cavs, so they underperformed and lost a series that they were supposed to win..

Since neither guy knew how to win, 09' Lebron is equal to 19' Giannis, not better ... Giannis struggled vs the Raps but an older lebron struggled against the 11' Mavs...