Here's audio of SVG saying the plan was to let Lebron score in 09' ECF

[3ball]

Lebron WAS double teamed though, that is historical record.

It was SVG's opinion that they "didn't double", which could mean they didn't double AS MUCH as they could other superstars who couldn't pass like Lebron.

But Lebron was absolutely doubled teams often in the 09 Magic series.

Also, SVG thinks Lebron is better than MJ, hence harder to stop from having impact. MJ saw single coverage in his career plenty of times as well due to defensive rules.

Lebron didn't get doubled in the 09' ECF, as SVG said numerous times over the years

he simply can't beat you with scoring, so why double?? that was SVG's reasoning and the OP's stats play that out (no real wins while scoring 35+)

The few times he manages to score a lot, it's the kind of offense that loses - it lacks the all-time ball movement and effective championship offense like MJ's high scoring series have

Ultimately, the primary strategy used against lebron (straight up defense) is simpler than the strategy needed against mj (doubles-teams and also off-ball defense, i.e. shading/doubling on screens, pindowns, etc)

Finally, double teams allow a team to swing the ball and scramble the defense - since double teams spur ball movement, the lebron's inability garner double teams is a primary reason his teams have non-championship ball movement (in addition to his ball-dominant skillset as a frontcourt player)..

[StrongLurk]

Lebron didn't get doubled in the 09' ECF, as SVG said numerous times over the years

he simply can't beat you with scoring, so why double?? that was SVG's reasoning and the OP's stats play that out (no real wins while scoring 35+)

The few times he manages to score a lot, it's the kind of offense that loses - it lacks the all-time ball movement and effective championship offense like MJ's high scoring series have

Ultimately, the primary strategy used against lebron (straight up defense) is simpler than the strategy needed against mj (doubles-teams and also off-ball defense, i.e. shading/doubling on screens, pindowns, etc)

Finally, double teams allow a team to swing the ball and scramble the defense - since double teams spur ball movement, the lebron's inability garner double teams is a primary reason his teams have non-championship ball movement (in addition to his ball-dominant skillset as a frontcourt player)..

Lebron WAS double teamed though, that is historical record.

It was SVG's opinion that they "didn't double", which could mean they didn't double AS MUCH as they could other superstars who couldn't pass like Lebron. That's a strength of Lebron's in that he can beat you multiple different ways.

Lebron was absolutely doubled teams often in the 09 Magic series. In fact, he has been doubled many times in his whole career just as all superstars are.

Also, SVG thinks Lebron is better than MJ, hence harder to stop from having impact.

[RRR3]

I was watching LeBron’s game 1 highlights just now from that series. A coupe of times they tried sending a double but LeBron moved too quickly for it. Food for thought

[Mr Feeny]

[QUOTE=RRR3]MJ would not have won that series lmao.

Name a single time he won a series with a second option on Mo Williams

[sdot_thadon]

Who on earth was Dwight' second option? Yet he beat lebron' Cavs as the lower seed.
Jordan would have comfortably won the 2009 series because I believe that any top 5 ATG would have won it.

Rashard was an allstar that season and made it outright and not as an injuy replacement......

[3ball]

Who on earth was Dwight' second option? Yet he beat lebron' Cavs as the lower seed.
Jordan would have comfortably won the 2009 series because I believe that any top 5 ATG would have won it.

09' Mo Will RS:[COLOR="White"].[/COLOR] 18/3/4.. 58.8 ts.. 115 ORtg.. 17.1 PER.. 0.165 ws/48.. 2.3 bpm.. 3.1 vorp
89' Pippen RS:[COLOR="White"]..[/COLOR] 14/6/4.. 52.4 ts.. 102 ORtg.. 14.9 PER.. 0.080 ws/48.. 1.4 bpm.. 2.1 vorp

09' Mo Will ECF:[COLOR="White"].[/COLOR] 18/3/4.. 50.5 ts.. 102 ORtg.. 10.8 gmsc.. lost to #4 SRS team
89' Pippen ECF:[COLOR="White"]..[/COLOR] 10/7/3.. 45.3 ts.... 92 ORtg.... 8.5 gmsc.. beat #1 SRS team
.

[Ainosterhaspie]

LOL. And Mo was just as good a defender?

[3ball]

LOL. And Mo was just as good a defender?

Doesn't matter - the Cavs were a great defensive team, better than the 89' Bulls

All those Cavs teams were great defensive teams (Mike Brown's call card) - that's how they took the 08' Celts 7 games despite horrific efficiency from lebron (26 on 35%)

Also, baby Pip wasn't a great defender in 89' - as you can see, he wasn't shit in 89'

[Ainosterhaspie]

In 2009

Magic ORtg against Lakers: 100.5.
Laker ORtg against Magic:110.8.
Magic ORtg against Cavaliers: 113.3.
Cavaliers ORtg against Magic: 110.6.

3Ball conclusion: the problem is the Cavaliers offense isn't good enough because LeBron doesn't demand double teams score as much as Kobe. Yep that extra 0.2 ORtg sure changed the series. It couldn't possibly be that the Lakers far superior defense was the key difference.

Also Kobe scored 32 ppg and LeBron scored 38 ppg, but again the Cavaliers lost because SVG knew he couldn't score as much as Kobe, which he did anyway. Can't make this stuff up. 3Balls arguments make zero sense and don't match what hepoened at all, but keep fighting the good fight sir.

[Mr Feeny]

In 2009

Magic ORtg against Lakers: 100.5.
Laker ORtg against Magic:110.8.
Magic ORtg against Cavaliers: 113.3.
Cavaliers ORtg against Magic: 110.6.

3Ball conclusion: the problem is the Cavaliers offense isn't good enough because LeBron doesn't demand double teams score as much as Kobe. Yep that extra 0.2 ORtg sure changed the series. It couldn't possibly be that the Lakers far superior defense was the key difference.

Also Kobe scored 32 ppg and LeBron scored 38 ppg, but again the Cavaliers lost because SVG knew he couldn't score as much as Kobe, which he did anyway. Can't make this stuff up. 3Balls arguments make zero sense and don't match what hepoened at all, but keep fighting the good fight sir.

He's only repeating what the coach from the 2009 Magic said. They were able to employ that strategy and dare him to beat them because unlike Kobe, Lebron wasnt good enough of a scorer to punish you.

[3ball]

In 2009

Magic ORtg against Lakers: 100.5.
Laker ORtg against Magic:110.8.
Magic ORtg against Cavaliers: 113.3.
Cavaliers ORtg against Magic: 110.6.

3Ball conclusion: the problem is the Cavaliers offense isn't good enough because LeBron doesn't demand double teams score as much as Kobe. Yep that extra 0.2 ORtg sure changed the series. It couldn't possibly be that the Lakers far superior defense was the key difference.

Also Kobe scored 32 ppg and LeBron scored 38 ppg, but again the Cavaliers lost because SVG knew he couldn't score as much as Kobe, which he did anyway. Can't make this stuff up. 3Balls arguments make zero sense and don't match what hepoened at all, but keep fighting the good fight sir.

Kobe was getting doubled tho

A team has greater overall production when the star is getting doubled and everyone else is getting off, versus the star scoring a few points more against straight-up D, while teammates get locked down

[Mr Feeny]

09' Mo Will RS:[COLOR="White"].[/COLOR] 18/3/4.. 58.8 ts.. 115 ORtg.. 17.1 PER.. 0.165 ws/48.. 2.3 bpm.. 3.1 vorp
89' Pippen RS:[COLOR="White"]..[/COLOR] 14/6/4.. 52.4 ts.. 102 ORtg.. 14.9 PER.. 0.080 ws/48.. 1.4 bpm.. 2.1 vorp

09' Mo Will ECF:[COLOR="White"].[/COLOR] 18/3/4.. 50.5 ts.. 102 ORtg.. 10.8 gmsc.. lost to #4 SRS team
89' Pippen ECF:[COLOR="White"]..[/COLOR] 10/7/3.. 45.3 ts.... 92 ORtg.... 8.5 gmsc.. beat #1 SRS team
.

I'm not arguing. I agree. Moe William's in 2009 was better than 1989 Pippen or Grant or anyone Jordan had. Jordan also won more games against those Pistons than anyone else did in those playoffs and the following playoffs, while the Cavaliers choked with the top seed.

Not sure why you're quoting me.

[Ainosterhaspie]

Kobe was getting doubled tho

A team has greater overall production when the star is getting doubled and everyone else is getting off, versus the star scoring a few points more against straight-up D, while teammates get locked down

And the Lakers had basically the exact same ORtg as the Cavs. Doubling or not doubling wasn't the key difference in the two series. It's the net -13 on the Magic's ORtg that was the significant difference in the two series. The Magic scored at will against the Cavs and got shut down by the Lakers.

You seem to think that forcing doubles magically produces better offense, but it didn't in that series. Two different tactics same result, 110.7 ORtg +/- 0.1.

[COLOR="White"]I suppose this is where you tell me the Cavaliers had a great defense even though what happened in the regular season has zero relevance to this particular matchup where the Cavs front court was hopelessly over matched.[/COLOR]

[Ainosterhaspie]

He's only repeating what the coach from the 2009 Magic said. They were able to employ that strategy and dare him to beat them because unlike Kobe, Lebron wasnt good enough of a scorer to punish you.

Maybe he should try thinking critically and realize that (A) LeBron has a much higher scoring average and efficiency compared to Kobe in bith the playoffs and regular season, and (B) the key difference in the series was the Lakers and Cavs defense, not their offense. If the Cavs were capable of playing the same level of defense against the Magic, they would have crushed them and the don't double LeBron strategy would be a complete failure. But for some reason (*cough agenda cough*) the glaring, obvious, key factor is being completely ignored.

[Ainosterhaspie]

Lebron WAS double teamed though, that is historical record.

It was SVG's opinion that they "didn't double", which could mean they didn't double AS MUCH as they could other superstars who couldn't pass like Lebron. That's a strength of Lebron's in that he can beat you multiple different ways.

Lebron was absolutely doubled teams often in the 09 Magic series. In fact, he has been doubled many times in his whole career just as all superstars are.

Also, SVG thinks Lebron is better than MJ, hence harder to stop from having impact.

The difference in defensive rules also makes this a really odd comparison. Illegal defense in the Jordan era meant you had to hard double or you couldn't double at all. In LeBron's era teams can use soft doubles. So the second player harasses and positions to give help without completely abandoning his man. So it's not exactly a double, but it's not exactly not a double either. And there is alway help waiting if LeBron beats his man. He pulls defenders away from his teammates albeit in a different manner than Jordan due to rules differences as well as style differences.