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  1. #16
    Presented by YouTubeTV SouBeachTalents's Avatar
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    Default Re: Stats from 1990-1999 for the best small forwards of the 90's

    Since ppg/rpg/apg and efficiency are the end all be all of evaluating who the better player is, LeBron is at worst the 2nd greatest perimeter player of all time

  2. #17
    Kropotkin stan RRR3's Avatar
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    Default Re: Stats from 1990-1999 for the best small forwards of the 90's

    Quote Originally Posted by SouBeachTalents
    Since ppg/rpg/apg and efficiency are the end all be all of evaluating who the better player is, LeBron is at worst the 2nd greatest perimeter player of all time
    LeBeast

  3. #18
    NBA Legend and Hall of Famer 3ball's Avatar
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    Default Re: Stats from 1990-1999 for the best small forwards of the 90's

    Quote Originally Posted by Manny98

    Ok but that doesn't change the fact that Pippens 21/7 highs are better than anyone you just listed
    No they aren't

    21/7 isn't better than the 90's highs of those SF's.. Bird, Hill and Dominique had better highs in the 90's.. 21/7 is an ordinary high for a good wing in the 90's, not the best


    Quote Originally Posted by Manny98

    especially when you take into account Pippen being a better defender than all of them combined

    Seriously [COLOR="DarkRed"]how many players in history can get you 21/7/7 with elite defense[/COLOR] like prime Pippen? He truly was a one of a kind player
    How many guys can get 21/7 with elite defense?

    Tons of guys.. Alonzo's 20/10 and 3 blocks is better... And Pippen's great defense while shooting 45% ts < Kemp's solid defense while shooting 65% ts

    So tons of guys can match him... 21/7 simply isn't that formidable...

    Btw, when pippen is getting 16 on 40% and being outscored by 5+ points, his defense isn't making up 5+ points vs equal or better athletes - like, Kemp or Penny are amazing athletes and it's laughable that anyone thinks pippen's defensive impact is significantly better then theirs if they were in the bulls system alongside mike (enough to make up for Pip's often horrific offense) - it isn't, and that's one of the most overblown narratives there is (that equal or better athletes then Pippen wouldn't be similar defenders in the Bulls system and alongside Mike, certainly enough to make them more valuable than Pippen's often horrific offense)
    .
    Last edited by 3ball; 09-30-2019 at 08:23 PM.

  4. #19
    Titles are overrated Kblaze8855's Avatar
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    Default Re: Stats from 1990-1999 for the best small forwards of the 90's

    I would love to see you sit down with an NBA coach and explain why you should judge Scottie Pippen by his numbers. Just for a laugh. Not that we really know how you would frame an opinion verbally because all of them are copied and pasted.

  5. #20
    Please clap. Real Men Wear Green's Avatar
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    Default Re: Stats from 1990-1999 for the best small forwards of the 90's

    This dumb ass called Penny and Vin Baker small forwards.

  6. #21
    Kropotkin stan RRR3's Avatar
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    Default Re: Stats from 1990-1999 for the best small forwards of the 90's

    Quote Originally Posted by Real Men Wear Green
    This dumb ass called Penny and Vin Baker small forwards.

  7. #22
    Hornets and Suns 4lyfe Smoke117's Avatar
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    Default Re: Stats from 1990-1999 for the best small forwards of the 90's

    Quote Originally Posted by Real Men Wear Green
    This dumb ass called Penny and Vin Baker small forwards.

  8. #23
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    Default Re: Stats from 1990-1999 for the best small forwards of the 90's

    Pippen put up similar numbers as a second option as all the others in OP did as first option. Even though he had MJ taking 25 shots a game.

    What OP proves is that Pippen was better than all of them. Specially when defense is considered.

    Thanks for confirming.

  9. #24
    NBA Legend and Hall of Famer 3ball's Avatar
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    Default Re: Stats from 1990-1999 for the best small forwards of the 90's

    Quote Originally Posted by Kblaze8855

    I would love to see you sit down with an NBA coach and explain why you should judge Scottie Pippen by his numbers. Just for a laugh. Not that we really know how you would frame an opinion verbally because all of them are copied and pasted.
    If you want to reach a championship level with Pippen as a primary scoring option, you need extra star help (scoring help) to offset his weaker scoring.. this might cost an extra 5-10 million a year to pay someone that can score an extra 6-7 ppg, so your backcourt elevates from BJ Armstrong/Pete Myers (2nd round level), to Terrell Brandon/Pete Myers (championship level)..

    Or......... you can just put MJ in Myers' spot... and then you won't need any scoring at the PG spot, so you can replace Brandon's big salary with old Ron Harper at the vet minimum.

    Ultimately, only MJ's scoring is enough to win with Pippen as the #2 option and pure role players after that.. Lesser scorers need 2nd and 3rd stars to win with Pippen's level of scoring - only MJ won multiple rings with one star and pure role players

    And I know the popular thinking about MJ is that he didn't actually make guys better, and perhaps another guy in his place would've somehow gotten more out of other guys and therefore not needed MJ's scoring level - except pippen, grant, and bj all grew from rookies to all-star level from 1989 to 1993 - no one could grow them faster or better than this and they still needed 36/7/8 on 53% from MJ in the 91-93' Finals... keep in mind that MJ's 41 in 93' was accomplished when the bulls and suns both averaged 106.7 ppg and 113.0 ortg (so all of mj's 41 was needed).

  10. #25
    New York baby!! Turbo Slayer's Avatar
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    Default Re: Stats from 1990-1999 for the best small forwards of the 90's

    Quote Originally Posted by Real Men Wear Green
    This dumb ass called Penny and Vin Baker small forwards.

  11. #26
    NBA Legend and Hall of Famer 3ball's Avatar
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    Default Re: Stats from 1990-1999 for the best small forwards of the 90's

    Quote Originally Posted by 3ball

    If you want to reach a championship level with Pippen as a primary scoring option, you need extra star help (scoring help) to offset his weaker scoring.. this might cost an extra 5-10 million a year to pay someone that can score an extra 6-7 ppg, so your backcourt elevates from BJ Armstrong/Pete Myers (2nd round level), to Terrell Brandon/Pete Myers (championship level)..

    Or......... you can just put MJ in Myers' spot... and then you won't need any scoring at the PG spot, so you can replace Brandon's big salary with old Ron Harper at the vet minimum.

    Ultimately, only MJ's scoring is enough to win with Pippen as the #2 option and pure role players after that.. Lesser scorers need 2nd and 3rd stars to win with Pippen's level of scoring - only MJ won multiple rings with one star and pure role players

    And I know the popular thinking about MJ is that he didn't actually make guys better, and perhaps another guy in his place would've somehow gotten more out of other guys and therefore not needed MJ's scoring level - except pippen, grant, and bj all grew from rookies to all-star level from 1989 to 1993 - no one could grow them faster or better than this and they still needed 36/7/8 on 53% from MJ in the 91-93' Finals... keep in mind that MJ's 41 in 93' was accomplished when the bulls and suns both averaged 106.7 ppg and 113.0 ortg (so all of mj's 41 was needed).
    Anyone?

  12. #27
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    Default Re: Stats from 1990-1999 for the best small forwards of the 90's

    Quote Originally Posted by 3ball
    Anyone?
    How many players are truly 'championship level' first options. Maybe a small handful each year? In the early 90s, maybe MJ, Barkley and Hakeem? Probably not anyone else. No one is arguing pippen is a championship level first option. But nor are most of the other guys in OP



    All NBA 1st team. All D first team. 3rd MVP voting. 55 wins. Roll of the dice with conference champs in the PO.

    ^^^
    As first option with roll players.

    Pippen was amazing. Without a doubt a top 5 perimeter player in the 90s.

    Give it up.

  13. #28
    NBA Legend and Hall of Famer 3ball's Avatar
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    Default Re: Stats from 1990-1999 for the best small forwards of the 90's

    Quote Originally Posted by AussieSteve

    How many players are truly 'championship level' first options.
    How many 2nd options have this many horrific series?


    1988 PLAYOFFS:[COLOR="White"].[/COLOR] 10.0 on 46.5%

    1989 PLAYOFFS:[COLOR="White"].[/COLOR] 13.1 on 46.2%

    1990 ECF[COLOR="White"].[/COLOR] vs[COLOR="White"].[/COLOR] DET:[COLOR="White"].[/COLOR] 16.6 on 42.8%

    1992 ECSF vs NYN:[COLOR="White"].[/COLOR] 16.0 on 40.2%

    1993 RD 1 vs. ATL:[COLOR="White"].[/COLOR] 15.0 on 42.2%

    1995 ECSF vs ORL:[COLOR="White"].[/COLOR] 19.0 on 40.9%

    1996 ECSF vs NYN:[COLOR="White"].[/COLOR] 15.6 on 33.0%
    1996 FINAL vs SEA:[COLOR="White"].[/COLOR] 15.7 on 34.3%

    1997 RD 1 vs WAS:[COLOR="White"].[/COLOR] 16.7 on 38.3%
    1997 ECF[COLOR="White"].[/COLOR] vs. MIA:[COLOR="White"].[/COLOR] 16.8 on 41.7%

    1998 ECF[COLOR="White"]S[/COLOR] vs[COLOR="White"]N[/COLOR] IND:[COLOR="White"].[/COLOR] 16.6 on 39.2%
    1998 FINAL vs UTA:[COLOR="White"].[/COLOR] 15.7 on 41.0%



    Quote Originally Posted by AussieSteve

    All NBA 1st team. All D first team. 3rd MVP voting.
    Pip only has one top 3 MVP to his name, so he wasn't an MVP-caliber player.. it was just a one-off, which tons of guys have

    i.e. Drexler almost beat MJ for MVP in 1992 - a lot of people thought he was getting it... So that one additional ranking and memorable runner-up that represents an entirely higher level of play that pippen could never reach... The same level that allowed Drexler to lead his team to the Finals twice and average 26 ppg against the Bad Boys' and MJ's defense..

    Pippen is nowhere near this level and shouldn't rank above Drexler on any chart.. similarly, he shouldn't rank above Ewing, Stockton, and maybe even KJ - their accomplishments show that they were superior players.. and I'm not including someone like Dominique or bernard king, even though their stats destroy pippen's - you could argue that they didn't play "optimally" or with great teamwork


    Quote Originally Posted by AussieSteve

    Roll of the dice with conference champs in the PO.
    It wasn't a roll of the dice and the Bulls were a Kukoc life saver away from going down 0-3

    It was one of those weird series where the loser overachieved big-time, like the 19' clippers vs the warriors


    Quote Originally Posted by AussieSteve

    ^^^
    55 wins.

    .
    He won 55 from a system and unique motivation - it certainly wasn't his non-spectacular stats or cast that won the 55.. no one in history has ever been in such a situation


    Quote Originally Posted by AussieSteve

    Pippen was amazing. Without a doubt a top 5 perimeter player in the 90s.
    Nobody will match his accolades because of the rings and how that boosted everything else

    But many guys were better including MJ, Drexler, Hill, Penny, Payton

    ^^^ There's 5

    98' and 99' Kobe was also better
    Last edited by 3ball; 10-01-2019 at 06:29 PM.

  14. #29
    New York baby!! Turbo Slayer's Avatar
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    Default Re: Stats from 1990-1999 for the best small forwards of the 90's

    Quote Originally Posted by 3ball
    How many 2nd options have this many horrific series?



    Tons of guys have career bests with accolades and accomplishments equal or better than this - if Pip only has one top 3 MVP year to his name, then you've shown that pippen wasn't an MVP-caliber player.

    i.e. Drexler almost beat MJ for MVP in 1992 - a lot of people thought he was getting it... So that one additional ranking and memorable runner-up that he has over Pippen actually represents an entirely higher level of play that pippen could never reach... The same level that allowed Drexler to lead his team to the Finals twice and average 26 ppg against the Bad Boys' and MJ's defense..

    Pippen is nowhere near this level and shouldn't rank above Drexler on any chart.. similarly, he shouldn't rank above Ewing, Stockton, and maybe even KJ - their accomplishments show that they were superior players.. and I'm not including someone like Dominique or bernard king, even though their stats destroy pippen's - you could argue that they didn't play "optimally" or with great teamwork






    It wasn't a roll of the dice and the Bulls were a Kukoc life saver away from going down 0-3

    It was one of those weird series where the loser overachieved big-time, like the 19' clippers vs the warriors



    He won 55 from a system and unique motivation - it certainly wasn't his non-spectacular stats or cast that won the 55.. no one in history has ever been in such a situation



    Nobody will match his accolades because of the rings and how that boosted everything else

    But many guys were better including MJ, Drexler, Hill, Penny, Payton

    ^^^ There's 5

    98' and 99' Kobe was also better
    Laughable. You think Penny and Baker are fowards LOL this poster cannot be taken seriously.

  15. #30
    NBA Legend and Hall of Famer 3ball's Avatar
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    Default Re: Stats from 1990-1999 for the best small forwards of the 90's

    Last edited by 3ball; 10-01-2019 at 06:36 PM.

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