Larry Bird or LeBron James

[Shooter]

I'm not even arguing (at least not right now) that Bird is as good or better defender than LeBron, but what I don't understand is why so many are so quick to point to defense.

Is that 2-3 year defensive peak that LeBron the reason? I could respect that.

Or it the perception of Bird as a defender? Maybe for you it's the former, but for most it's probably the latter.

LeBron is 100% the best 2 way player in NBA history, no one is close. No one has anchored a defense like him. PERIOD. What don't you get?

MJ had Pippen
TD had Kawhi
Kawhi had TD
Magic had Kareem
Kobe had Shaq/Artest
LBJ had...Himself

[1987_Lakers]

I'm not even arguing (at least not right now) that Bird is as good or better defender than LeBron, but what I don't understand is why so many are so quick to point to defense.

Is that 2-3 year defensive peak that LeBron the reason? I could respect that.

Or it the perception of Bird as a defender? Maybe for you it's the former, but for most it's probably the latter.

2009-2013 LeBron is a better defender than any version of Bird, that is 5 seasons right there. Bird was an atrocious defender to close out his career, far worse than current LeBron. LeBron still shows flashes of being a great defender, you couldn't say the same for Bird post 1988.

Not only that, but peak LeBron is looked at as an all-time defender, ability to guard all positions, transition defense with his chase down blocks, Bird never got to that level.

[Shooter]

2009-2013 LeBron is a better defender than any version of Bird, that is 5 seasons right there. Bird was an atrocious defender to close out his career, far worse than current LeBron. LeBron still shows flashes of being a great defender, you couldn't say the same for Bird post 1988.

LeBron WAS the anchor for each chip.

[Lion's pride]

LeBron surpassed Bird in 2016. I can't think of a reason to go with Bird, both are similar in terms of peak play (I'll take LeBron cause of his defense), but LeBron is so far ahead of Bird in terms of longevity you would have to be simple to go with Bird.

Need some reasons

1- Bird peak> Lebron
2- Bird came through under pressure X10 > Lebron..
3- made everyone better not jut spot up shooters
4- Dominated without dominating the ball.
5-Bird won 3 titles in what 11years of playing.. ALL WITHOUT jumping teams like what 3 times!!
6- didn't need a teammate to take the BIG shot that He was to scared to do.. Ray Allen and Kyrie say Hello!
7- NEVER EVER QUIT ON A TEAM/TEAMMATES!!!!
8- NEVER THREW A WHOLE COUNTRY'S SUFFERING CITIZENS UNDER THE BUS!! just to make a few bucks..

*** was liked and loved and respected by everyone fans and teammates alike.. Lebron -

the ONLY thing Lebron has in longevity... Thanks to modern training and HGH..

But since I am simple, I probably missed a few things!!

[1987_Lakers]

Need some reasons

1- Bird peak> Lebron
2- Bird came through under pressure X10 > Lebron..ng the ball
3- made everyone better not jut spot up shooters
4- Dominated without dominating the ball.
5-Bird won 3 titles in what 11years of playing.. ALL WITHOUT jumping teams like what 3 times!!
6- didn't need a teammate to take the BIG shot that He was to scared to do.. Ray Allen and Kyrie say Hello!
7- NEVER EVER QUIT ON A TEAM/TEAMMATES!!!!
8- NEVER THREW A WHOLE COUNTRY'S SUFFERING CITIZENS UNDER THE BUS!! just to make a few bucks..

*** was liked and loved and respected by everyone fans and teammates alike.. Lebron -

the ONLY thing Lebron has in longevity... Thanks to modern training and HGH..

But since I am simple, I probably missed a few things!!

1. Arguable, many feel LeBron was better
2. LeBron didn't? Game 6 vs Boston in 2012. Game 7 vs Spurs in 2013, coming back from being down 3-1 and dominating in the process
3. Bird > MJ in terms of making his teammates better, does that make Bird a better player?
4. Look at the end result, both won 3 titles, LeBron made more Finals. Who cares?
5. Guess what, Bird played with more stacked teams than LeBron.
6. Smh, yea, Bird was never bailed out by Cedric Maxwell in the '81 Finals. I guess you can say the same for MJ with Paxson and Kerr
7. LeBron didn't either
8. What does that have to do with who the better player is?

Sorry, your arguments are atrocious, you sound exactly like a casual fan who has no real depth to his arguments.

[HoopsNY]

Exposed

How so? I don't think there was a single finals where Bird attempted 20+ FGA per game. And Bird had guys like Kevin McHale who the Celtics could default to in the low-post, particularly after McHale became the full time PF.

Who did LeBron have that compared to McHale's scoring ability in 2007, 2013, 2015, and the 2018 NBA finals? Let's see:

2007 - Drew Gooden?
2013 - Dwyane Wade? (Injured)
2015 - Timofey Mozgov?
2018 - JR Smith?

Furthermore, let's look at LeBron's highest FGA in the finals by year:

2015: 32.7
2016: 23.7
2017: 23.4
2018: 23.3
2007: 22.5
2012: 21.6
2013: 21.4

Only 2 years did he not have over 20 FGA per game in the finals. Bird never had a single finals with 20+ FGA. When Bird's shots weren't falling, he defaulted to facilitating. He dominated the game in more ways than one. And despite that, LeBron's FG% in the finals is 47% compared to Bird's 45%, just two percentage points higher.

And I love the emphasis on this but conveniently ignoring LeBron's 39% shooting in the 2015 finals, or his performances in 2007 and 2011. Yea, "exposed."

[Shooter]

How so? I don't think there was a single finals where Bird attempted 20+ FGA per game. And Bird had guys like Kevin McHale who the Celtics could default to in the low-post, particularly after McHale became the full time PF.

Who did LeBron have that compared to McHale's scoring ability in 2007, 2013, 2015, and the 2018 NBA finals? Let's see:

2007 - Drew Gooden?
2013 - Dwyane Wade? (Injured)
2015 - Timofey Mozgov?
2018 - JR Smith?

Furthermore, let's look at LeBron's highest FGA in the finals by year:

2015: 32.7
2016: 23.7
2017: 23.4
2018: 23.3
2007: 22.5
2012: 21.6
2013: 21.4

Only 2 years did he not have over 20 FGA per game in the finals. Bird never had a single finals with 20+ FGA. When Bird's shots weren't falling, he defaulted to facilitating. He dominated the game in more ways than one. And despite that, LeBron's FG% in the finals is 47% compared to Bird's 45%, just two percentage points higher.

And I love the emphasis on this but conveniently ignoring LeBron's 39% shooting in the 2015 finals, or his performances in 2007 and 2011. Yea, "exposed."

You typed all that up to realize that LeBron set the record for most times leading his team in Finals scoring?

LBJ 8x
Bird 2x

NEXT

[HoopsNY]

2009-2013 LeBron is a better defender than any version of Bird, that is 5 seasons right there. Bird was an atrocious defender to close out his career, far worse than current LeBron. LeBron still shows flashes of being a great defender, you couldn't say the same for Bird post 1988.

Yea, after what should have been career ending injuries. Surely you understand that the injuries were the primary factor in his demise and it wasn't down to a decline of ability.

Not only that, but peak LeBron is looked at as an all-time defender, ability to guard all positions, transition defense with his chase down blocks, Bird never got to that level.

"Ability to guard all positions" means what exactly if you're not actually elite at guarding all of them? This narrative that just because you can put LeBron on a 1-5 automatically means he guards them at a highly effective rate is false.

As for his transition defense with chase down blocks, how many of those does he have as opposed to Bird's defensive timing of steals coming off his assignment, leading to transition points? I can almost guarantee Bird's is more frequent than these supposedly frequent chase down blocks.

It's amazing how an occasional chase down block somehow gets touted as if it's a regular on the ball block like he's Hakeem Olajuwon or something.

[HoopsNY]

You typed all that up to realize that LeBron set the record for most times leading his team in Finals scoring?

LBJ 8x
Bird 2x

NEXT

Clearly you don't understand context. You also clearly don't understand who Kevin McHale was or how dominant of a low-post player he was. And it's obviously easier to be the default scorer and put up a high volume of shots when your second options are guys like a hobbled Dwyane Wade or freaking Timofey Mozgov.

[NBAGOAT]

Yea, after what should have been career ending injuries. Surely you understand that the injuries were the primary factor in his demise and it wasn't down to a decline of ability.



"Ability to guard all positions" means what exactly if you're not actually elite at guarding all of them. This narrative that just because you can put LeBron on a 1-5 automatically means he guards them at a highly effective rate is false.

As for his transition defense with chase down blocks, how many of those does he have as opposed to Bird's defensive timing of steals coming off his assignment, leading to transition points? I can almost guarantee Bird's is more frequent than these supposedly frequent chase down blocks.

It's amazing how an occasional chase down block somehow gets touted as if it's a regular on the ball block like he's Hakeem Olajuwon or something.

lebron's a better defender beyond the chase down blocks. He rim protects in the half court too and in his prime was amazingly versatile and could cover a bunch of ground as a help defender. pretty good man defender too, bird just doesnt have his footspeed. 1-5 is exaggerating but 1-4 isnt that outrageous.

was basically the main reason miami could play their ridiculous trappy help defense and recover and make up so much ground running from guy to guy. The raptors said they had a tracking system that tried to find optimal defense and lebron almost broke their system with how athletic he was with a great motor. direct quote was "He does things that are just unsustainable for most players" Not the best stats but impact metrics had him even as all-defense lvl in 2016(had to try with kyrie out) and he was pretty good this year.

[1987_Lakers]

Yea, after what should have been career ending injuries. Surely you understand that the injuries were the primary factor in his demise and it wasn't down to a decline of ability.



"Ability to guard all positions" means what exactly if you're not actually elite at guarding all of them? This narrative that just because you can put LeBron on a 1-5 automatically means he guards them at a highly effective rate is false.

As for his transition defense with chase down blocks, how many of those does he have as opposed to Bird's defensive timing of steals coming off his assignment, leading to transition points? I can almost guarantee Bird's is more frequent than these supposedly frequent chase down blocks.

It's amazing how an occasional chase down block somehow gets touted as if it's a regular on the ball block like he's Hakeem Olajuwon or something.

Even prime Bird '85-'88, was a liability in terms of man to man defense on the perimeter, the beauty of the Celtics is that they had McHale guard all the explosive SFs, he hid alot Bird's weaknesses on the defensive end. Prime LeBron was never a defensive liability in any sense.

Did you watch 2011-2013 LeBron? He was shutting people down from Pau Gasol to Derrick Rose. Tony Parker couldn't do squat against him in the 2013 Finals, also LeBron's size and athletic ability made him a solid rim protector in the half court, which is something you don't see among SFs. And if you watched LeBron from 2009 & 2010, you would know his chase down blocks were pretty frequent, hell one of his chase down blocks probably won him a title in 2016.

Sorry, Bird was not on his level defensively, not even close.

[Lion's pride]

Not only am I not a casual fan I have a lot of ammunition to 5 fact, will do so tomorrow as this is getting late, but mean while feed on this Larry Bird made multiple all defensive teams not necessarily because he was a great lock up man to man defender, but its ability to read and recognize offenses one step of head of everyone else made him way beyond what should given him credit for. Or in short was a far better defender and much closer to Le brons defense then you realize

[Lebron23]

Lebron is the better player. Deal with it. Bird is still the 2nd greatest sf of all time. I doubt larry was capable of leading a $hitty team like the 2007 cavaliers, and 2018 cavaliers in the nba finals.

[Round Mound]

Lebron is the better player. Deal with it. Bird is still the 2nd greatest sf of all time. I doubt larry was capable of leading a $hitty team like the 2007 cavaliers, and 2018 cavaliers in the nba finals.

Super-rookie Bird led Boston from 29 wins to 61 wins in 1979-80 (WITHOUT McHale or Parish)

[Walk on Water]

Lebron is the better player. Deal with it. Bird is still the 2nd greatest sf of all time. I doubt larry was capable of leading a $hitty team like the 2007 cavaliers, and 2018 cavaliers in the nba finals.

No. Just no.