How did LeBron in his Prime on Super Teams lose to a bunch of Old Men in 2011/2014?

[KD7]

Teams don't overtly double lebron

[3ball]

Lebron was doubled on 5.4% of possessions in the 2015 Finals - that's 1 in 20 times...

Otoh, mj actually WAS doubled on every.... single.... possession... Read all about it here, including 25+ GIF's (compared to your 1 gif):

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/sho...e-besides-Wilt

[Phoenix]

Never seen so much help defense in my entire life

The Dallas defense weren't paying attention to anyone outside of LeBron

Bullshit misinterpretation of what you're seeing, complete with retarded rolling emojis. You saw Jason Kidd playing him 40 feet out a few times. You saw him drive into the paint and another defender come over. You saw him settle for a few open 3s. You saw him miss a few point blank layups. You said he was triple teamed every time with the ball. That video says otherwise so......you're a liar who can be caught out with a 10 second google search.

[Roundball_Rock]

That's the point thought. Whether Bosh 'should' have stepped up, if everyone played at their 'norm', the Heat very likely win the series. None of the big 3 needed to play much better, they just couldn't afford anyone to majorly drop off and let's be honest, Lebron playing well and Bosh being 'meh' gives much better margin for error than Bosh being 'meh' and Lebron being 'wtf'( relative to what we know he's capable of). There's levels to this.

I agree. LeBron choked hard and he deserves the bulk of the blame. I am just noting Bosh gets off scot free.

Jazz would have been one but for the Bulls.

Which is why they won after the Bulls were broken up, right? There is no guarantee the Jazz win if the Bulls never existed. Or maybe they won 1 of those 2 finals. People keep automatically ascribing rings to the finals loses, even though the EC would have a representative in place of the Bulls. Also, if the Bulls aren't a super team maybe teams like the Jazz do more to compete. Their "big" move for Hornacek was in 94'. They did nothing after losing the WCF in 96' or losing the finals twice.

[Phoenix]

I agree. LeBron choked hard and he deserves the bulk of the blame. I am just noting Bosh gets off scot free. .

Bosh had his moments. He was really good against Chicago and Wade was subpar that series. Big issue with that team was bringing 3 guys together who were all 'the man' on their own teams, in the primes of their careers, and needed to figure out how the pieces fit. Bosh had the same issue that Love would have: where and how does the 'third' star fit into the puzzle?

You could say they more or less 'talented' their way through the first year and were much better in 2012 with depth and more defined roles. Wade played more off Lebron as opposed to the 'whose turn is it' dynamic that first year. But 2011 was also the last true peak year for Wade and Bosh had his own health issues as time passed. The pecking order kind of worked itself out on-court as well as Wade basically handing over the keys and he take the front passenger seat.

[Roundball_Rock]

Bosh had his moments. He was really good against Chicago and Wade was subpar that series. Big issue with that team was bringing 3 guys together who were all 'the man' on their own teams, in the primes of their careers, and needed to figure out how the pieces fit. Bosh had the same issue that Love would have: where and how does the 'third' star fit into the puzzle?

You could say they more or less 'talented' their way through the first year and were much better in 2012 with depth and more defined roles. Wade played more off Lebron as opposed to the 'whose turn is it' dynamic that first year. But 2011 was also the last true peak year for Wade and Bosh had his own health issues as time passed. The pecking order kind of worked itself out on-court as well as Wade basically handing over the keys and he take the front passenger seat.

Good points. The chemistry issues were big problems in 11', as was having no bench. They improved their depth in later years as ring chasers showed up but they were a 3 man team in 11'.

Despite all that, if LeBron doesn't melt down they still win.

[Elosha]

I agree. LeBron choked hard and he deserves the bulk of the blame. I am just noting Bosh gets off scot free.



Which is why they won after the Bulls were broken up, right? There is no guarantee the Jazz win if the Bulls never existed. Or maybe they won 1 of those 2 finals. People keep automatically ascribing rings to the finals loses, even though the EC would have a representative in place of the Bulls. Also, if the Bulls aren't a super team maybe teams like the Jazz do more to compete. Their "big" move for Hornacek was in 94'. They did nothing after losing the WCF in 96' or losing the finals twice.

Jazz are a bit like Mavs in 2011 They had a short window to win, but they ran into Jordan and the Bulls, not LBJ and his co-stars. In 1999, after 2 grueling years getting to the Finals, they were old and spent, and coming up against the next generation's emerging powerhouses.

Sure, no one can say with absolute certainty the Jazz would have won in 97-98 if playing Miami or Indiana, but you can't also tell me with a straight face that those Jazz aren't the kind of team that's given LeBron nightmares throughout his playoff career.

[Roundball_Rock]

Jazz are a bit like Mavs in 2011 They had a short window to win, but they ran into Jordan and the Bulls, not LBJ and his co-stars

I disagree. The Jazz had a long window to win. They made 5 WCF's from 1992-1998. They won 55 games in 1990; they won 55 games in 2000. They were perennial contenders. They just never got it done, in part because Malone and Stockton shrunk in the playoffs.

but you can't also tell me with a straight face that those Jazz aren't the kind of team that's given LeBron nightmares throughout his playoff career.

Fair point.

[Elosha]

I disagree. The Jazz had a long window to win. They made 5 WCF's from 1992-1998. They won 55 games in 1990; they won 55 games in 2000. They were perennial contenders. They just never got it done, in part because Malone and Stockton shrunk in the playoffs.



Fair point.

You raise a valid point as well as to the Jazz. Quite arguably they underachieved earlier, although to be fair Phoenix in 93, Seattle in 96 and Houston in 94-95 especially were a tall task for anyone on the WC to handle. But what I meant is that they honestly broke through for 2 years in 97-98. They had a hard nosed defender and underrated scorer in B. Russell. Stockton and Malone were still at the tail end of their prime, Ostertag was a force in the middle by his size alone, Hornacek was inconsistent, yes, but still steady, and most importantly, they just jelled those years. They seemed a team of destiny, like when Stockton hit the playoff series winner over Barkley. They had the look and feel of a champion, and I've watched enough basketball to see it. They were running downhill in some of those playoff games in 97-98 and were so HUNGRY. It's hard, really hard, to stave off a team like that. That's why I think they might have actually steamrolled a team like LeBron's Heat, much like the Mavs and 2014 Spurs did (and 2013 Spurs should have/almost did do). The 97-98 Jazz had the type of team - the type of hunger and mentality - that often cuts through LeBron's teams like butter.

[knicksman]

coz lebron is a fraud. If this is a video game, fraud games usually focus on graphics to hide their shit gameplay. With players, they focus on stats to hide their shit skills. And thats who lebron is. Theres a reason why only nerds love him.

[Manny98]

Bullshit misinterpretation of what you're seeing, complete with retarded rolling emojis. You saw Jason Kidd playing him 40 feet out a few times. You saw him drive into the paint and another defender come over. You saw him settle for a few open 3s. You saw him miss a few point blank layups. You said he was triple teamed every time with the ball. That video says otherwise so......you're a liar who can be caught out with a 10 second google search.

[Phoenix]

What point are you trying to make with this gif? Lebron was backing down Kidd and then Marion came over to help. Is that one of the 'triple teams' you're referring to? Cause that's not one, so kudos on using a gif that doesn't illustrate what you say happened every time.

[dbugz]

libron is playing against grandpas on that series.

What's that another excuse?

[ELITEpower23]

Lebron was doubled on 5.4% of possessions in the 2015 Finals - that's 1 in 20 times...

Otoh, mj actually WAS doubled on every.... single.... possession... Read all about it here, including 25+ GIF's (compared to your 1 gif):

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/sho...e-besides-Wilt

LBJ can pass, MJ cannot. There is no risk in double teaming a player that cannot pass.

[Roundball_Rock]

You raise a valid point as well as to the Jazz. Quite arguably they underachieved earlier, although to be fair Phoenix in 93, Seattle in 96 and Houston in 94-95 especially were a tall task for anyone on the WC to handle. But what I meant is that they honestly broke through for 2 years in 97-98

Underachieved is one way to look at it. The other way is they didn't start winning the WC until Drexler, Hakeem, Barkley all got old.

The Jazz were good but they also almost lost in the first round to a 41 win team in 98'. They were down 2-1 (best of 5 back then).

I think the Knicks were the Bulls' best competitor in the 90's. The Jazz just benefited from the superstars who they lost to previously aging and Seattle being choke artists (outside of one run in 96').

LBJ can pass, MJ cannot. There is no risk in double teaming a player that cannot pass.

Yeah it is crazy to double team an all-time great passer like LeBron.