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Thread: "Back in the 90's, the game was more tough and physical"

  1. #151
    NBA Legend and Hall of Famer DMAVS41's Avatar
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    Default Re: "Back in the 90's, the game was more tough and physical"

    Quote Originally Posted by Ainosterhaspie
    Watch the fourth quarter when the Spurs eliminated the Lakers 2003. Where's the physicality that is markedly different from a modern playoff game. I often see more handchecking in the modern game than what you see there, not less. Obviously offense was no where near what it is now in that era, but at the same time when I watch stuff like the clip above it's hard for me to accept the common assertion, that physicality explains the difference in eras.

    Look at Shaq posting up at 3:50. Defender is using forearm on his back. That is almost always a handcheck in today's game. Shaq spins effortless off for an easy basket. At 7:10 Parker with a drive and kick that's a modern bread and butter play.

    At the 12 minute mark you see some tentative hand checking by Bowen on Kobe. Game's over by then. Maybe one of those gets called today, but probably not. I routinely see refs let that stuff go. More likely the offensive player takes a shot when he puts his hand in to try to draw the foul on the arm, but the hand check probably doesn't get called.

    But where are the guys who can't get the ball up the court because they have to turn their back to the basket? It's not happening.

    I realize that the Pistons were a very physical defense, but when the argument is based on a singular team, it isn't much of an argument. The Lakers are three time defending Champs, the Spurs the title team this year and a great defensive team. Handchecking is almost not existent here. If it was the game changer people claim shouldn't there be a lot more of it? Of course it was actually illegal in this era, though perhaps inconsistently enforced, so maybe that's why we don't see tons of it.

    Just one video, and only part of one game at that, but every time I watch old games, the physicality is far less than advertised. Highlight videos dont mean anything. Watch the games. It's really not what people keep telling us it was. They haven't watched these games since then. They remember a handful of anomalous plays and have turned the whole league into those few plays.
    Yea, I think this is mostly fair.

    This is why I keep saying we need to zoom out. There just isn't enough of a huge difference in points produced on the average possession in terms of the different eras to warrant the kind of talk about defense today vs some other previous era.

    I think that is separate from some of the individual production today due to the higher pace in combination with that. That is a valid point that a lot of these per game numbers are inflated. But in this thread we aren't talking about that. We are talking about defense/offense as a whole.

    Especially, again, when we all know that taking a bunch of long 2's like everyone did for most of the last 40 years...was not optimal and made life on the defenses easier...and so I'm still waiting to hear how defense is so terrible now, but when the league was played at the same pace and the league was scoring virtually the same amount of points per possession...while playing objectively worse offense overall...the defense was better.

    That just doesn't make sense.

  2. #152
    NBA Legend and Hall of Famer warriorfan's Avatar
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    Default Re: "Back in the 90's, the game was more tough and physical"

    Quote Originally Posted by DMAVS41
    Yea, I think this is mostly fair.

    This is why I keep saying we need to zoom out. There just isn't enough of a huge difference in points produced on the average possession in terms of the different eras to warrant the kind of talk about defense today vs some other previous era.

    I think that is separate from some of the individual production today due to the higher pace in combination with that. That is a valid point that a lot of these per game numbers are inflated. But in this thread we aren't talking about that. We are talking about defense/offense as a whole.

    Especially, again, when we all know that taking a bunch of long 2's like everyone did for most of the last 40 years...was not optimal and made life on the defenses easier...and so I'm still waiting to hear how defense is so terrible now, but when the league was played at the same pace and the league was scoring virtually the same amount of points per possession...while playing objectively worse offense overall...the defense was better.

    That just doesn't make sense.
    Players practiced and specialized in

  3. #153
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    Default Re: "Back in the 90's, the game was more tough and physical"

    Quote Originally Posted by DMAVS41
    I really think this is flawed thinking.

    You aren't even talking about defense.

    Forget 3's...do you think the teams with the best offenses should win more without even knowing the defense?

    There are so many other factors that go into winning other than shooting 3's...

    This is not a point.

    We are talking about offense...not the total strength of a team...and, you know, how good the players are on said team.

    I told you this earlier...you did this with the "Lebron Ball" stuff...you never even talk about team defense...when in reality Lebron lost more often based on his team defense than he did on offense.

    Like when you say you couldn't figure out why the 18 Rockets came closer to winning. It isn't complicated dude...it was because the Cavs couldn't play defense nearly as well as the Rockets.
    Na i actually agree with most of that. That point was specifically for what he was saying about offences being archaic and that shooting more threes is the end all and be all. If that was the case than all you would have to do is shoot more threes and you should be able to beat pretty much anyone but as you say its much more complicated than that.

  4. #154
    NBA Legend and Hall of Famer DMAVS41's Avatar
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    Default Re: "Back in the 90's, the game was more tough and physical"

    Quote Originally Posted by warriorfan
    Players practiced and specialized in “playing objectively worse offensive basketball” as you would put it. It is a less optimal style in theory but they did it effectively enough for along time. You are chasing a what came first the chicken or the egg question when it doesn’t apply to this situation, they both dynamically grew together. Defense was obviously tougher and more physical and offenses played a less efficient style of basketball but that was all they knew and they still managed to do it effectively.



    Yes, I agree with the bold.

    I'm not arguing what you think I am or you are confused.

    You saying they played a "less efficient style" is my point...so you agree.

  5. #155
    NBA Legend and Hall of Famer DMAVS41's Avatar
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    Default Re: "Back in the 90's, the game was more tough and physical"

    Quote Originally Posted by Bronbron23
    Na i actually agree with most of that. That point was specifically for what he was saying about offences being archaic and that shooting more threes is the end all and be all. If that was the case than all you would have to do is shoot more threes and you should be able to beat pretty much anyone but as you say its much more complicated than that.
    That isn't what he means and of course there is way more to basketball than just shooting a lot of 3's.

    This seems like just trying to argue about something for no reason.

  6. #156
    NBA Legend and Hall of Famer warriorfan's Avatar
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    Default Re: "Back in the 90's, the game was more tough and physical"

    Quote Originally Posted by DMAVS41
    [/B]

    Yes, I agree with the bold.

    I'm not arguing what you think I am or you are confused.

    You saying they played a "less efficient style" is my point...so you agree.
    But to them it wasn

  7. #157
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    Default Re: "Back in the 90's, the game was more tough and physical"

    Quote Originally Posted by DMAVS41
    I really think this is flawed thinking.

    You aren't even talking about defense.

    Forget 3's...do you think the teams with the best offenses should win more without even knowing the defense?

    There are so many other factors that go into winning other than shooting 3's...

    This is not a point.

    We are talking about offense...not the total strength of a team...and, you know, how good the players are on said team.

    I told you this earlier...you did this with the "Lebron Ball" stuff...you never even talk about team defense...when in reality Lebron lost more often based on his team defense than he did on offense.

    Like when you say you couldn't figure out why the 18 Rockets came closer to winning. It isn't complicated dude...it was because the Cavs couldn't play defense nearly as well as the Rockets.
    And if you ever seen any of my other posts youd know i talk about defence all the time. Im one of the few people who thinks its as important as offence. In our conversations its been centered on straight offence. Even still ive said many times thats theres other factors and that why you cant say for sure

  8. #158
    NBA Legend and Hall of Famer DMAVS41's Avatar
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    Default Re: "Back in the 90's, the game was more tough and physical"

    [QUOTE=warriorfan]But to them it wasn

  9. #159
    Jerry West 72-10's Avatar
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    Default Re: "Back in the 90's, the game was more tough and physical"

    the league's scoring records are almost all from the 80s. the league's field goal percentage records are all from the 80s. mostly mid to late 80s. wtf are you quipping about?

    lol DMAVS

  10. #160
    NBA Legend and Hall of Famer warriorfan's Avatar
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    Default Re: "Back in the 90's, the game was more tough and physical"

    Quote Originally Posted by DMAVS41
    I completely agree.

    I have not once even argued players today are better. I'm saying that how teams play in terms of shooting 3's now is more optimal than taking long 2's like teams did in the past.

    In no way am I implying that older players couldn't do it. In fact, older generation players might have been better suited to take more 3's and play within that style...I could see arguments for that and might actually agree.
    If they grew up playing that style or gave them enough years to practice and adjust, sure.

  11. #161
    NBA Legend and Hall of Famer DMAVS41's Avatar
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    Default Re: "Back in the 90's, the game was more tough and physical"

    Quote Originally Posted by Bronbron23
    And if you ever seen any of my other posts youd know i talk about defence all the time. Im one of the few people who thinks its as important as offence. In our conversations its been centered on straight offence. Even still ive said many times thats theres other factors and that why you cant say for sure
    So then why even pretend to think teams taking the most 3's should win the most?

    Why question how Lebron couldn't come closer than Harden to beating the Warriors when the Rockets had the 6th best defense and the Cavs had the 29th best defense?

    Do you understand my confusion?

  12. #162
    NBA Legend and Hall of Famer DMAVS41's Avatar
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    Default Re: "Back in the 90's, the game was more tough and physical"

    Quote Originally Posted by 72-10
    the league's scoring records are almost all from the 80s. the league's field goal percentage records are all from the 80s. mostly mid to late 80s. wtf are you quipping about?

    lol DMAVS
    That actually makes my point.


  13. #163
    NBA Legend and Hall of Famer warriorfan's Avatar
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    Default Re: "Back in the 90's, the game was more tough and physical"

    Quote Originally Posted by DMAVS41
    So then why even pretend to think teams taking the most 3's should win the most?

    Why question how Lebron couldn't come closer than Harden to beating the Warriors when the Rockets had the 6th best defense and the Cavs had the 29th best defense.

    Do you understand my confusion?
    Lebron hand picked an offensive minded team of shooters and stretch bigs, he chose to not play defense. I don’t see how his teams poor defense is not his fault.

  14. #164
    NBA Legend and Hall of Famer DMAVS41's Avatar
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    Default Re: "Back in the 90's, the game was more tough and physical"

    [QUOTE=warriorfan]Lebron hand picked an offensive minded team of shooters and chose to not play defense. I don

  15. #165
    NBA Legend and Hall of Famer warriorfan's Avatar
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    Default Re: "Back in the 90's, the game was more tough and physical"

    Quote Originally Posted by DMAVS41
    Can we please not do this.

    That isn't, at all, what we are discussing here.

    Start a new thread if you want to talk how much more of a negative impact on defense Lebron was in 2018 than James Harden.

    Just please don't do it here.
    You asked the question, not me.

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