Historical record: MJ considered equal or better defender than Pip every yr except 2

[Rico2016]

Jordan was better at reading passes and jumping the passing lanes than Pippen

although he gambled sometimes, his steals have more value than some of ya'll give him credit for because he rarely lost on his gambles

and with his timing in the paint and vertical leap, he might be the best shotblocking guard of all time

How did the Bulls improve on defense after shedding a PRIME Jordan? Face it, he is not a 2 way player.

[andgar923]

no he wasn't - edit: whoops, misread your quote, I'll just keep this

he played better lockdown D than Pippen (just like Rodman did as well) though

Pippen was more effective over the course of a whole game and he's more effective for the rare traps in close games

Pippen's defensive assignments often entailed the other teams' best offensive player, like a prime Grant Hill, a prime Penny Hardaway, and a prime Reggie Miller

That was MJ when Pip got killed by those same players.

MJ was the stopper specially on those players, specially during crunch time.

And unlike Pip who was often used as a free safety, MJ chased players all over through screens etc

[72-10]

it's an interesting point about guard play, screens, etc. something I didn't pay much mind

[NBAGOAT]

That was MJ when Pip got killed by those same players.

MJ was the stopper specially on those players, specially during crunch time.

And unlike Pip who was often used as a free safety, MJ chased players all over through screens etc

It

[Micku]

no he wasn't - edit: whoops, misread your quote, I'll just keep this

he played better lockdown D than Pippen (just like Rodman did as well) though

Pippen was more effective over the course of a whole game and he's more effective for the rare traps in close games

Pippen's defensive assignments often entailed the other teams' best offensive player, like a prime Grant Hill, a prime Penny Hardaway, and a prime Reggie Miller

I want to say MJ was better reading and fighting off screens off the ball than Pippen too. But I have to rewatch some games to really see.

[3ball]

Bulls Team defensive rating
1993: 106.1
*Bulls drop Joran and add Pete Myers
1994: 102.7
1995: 104.3

In 1994, the entire league saw a decline in DRtg, so the Bulls' DRtg didn't change relative to the league - their ranking remained the same - their defense ranked 7th, 4th, and 7th from 91-93', and 6th in 1994

So no improvement at all

Since their defensive ranking remained the same, the massive decline from 3-peat dynasty to 2nd Round team was due entirely to the absence of MJ's goat offense, which caused their offensive ranking to crater from #1 all-time (during the 3-peat) to 14th in the league in 1994.

Bulls Team defensive rating
1993: 106.1
*Bulls drop Joran and add Pete Myers
1994: 102.7
1995: 104.3

Again, the entire league saw an improvement in DRtg so the bulls' rankings remained the same.

teams have a limited amount of energy to expend on both ends - shifts in performance/effort on one side normally take away from the other side.. But even though the Bulls offense fell off a cliff in 1994 and they focused more on defense, their defense didn't improve relative to the league because they were missing their best defender.

Otoh, the presence of MJ gave the Bulls the highest ORtg's of all time.. But this GOAT improvement on offense didn't come at the expense of defense like it would for most teams.. His presence enabled a TWO-WAY team, which isn't surprising, since he's the goat two-way player according to Popovich.

So imagine Kawhi Leonard (as Popovich references), with the capability of scoring 15 more ppg.. That's Jordan... That's the GOAT.. we're seeing Kawhi dominate this year
.

[3ball]

.
Grant Hill bullies Pippen super-easy:






Whereas MJ's superior aggressiveness and strength makes Grant Hill work super-hard:






Pippen can't handle Grant off-the-dribble - he can't stay in front:






But MJ can - he stays in front of Grant every step of the way and forces wild shot:






Pippen couldn't handle quick wings with good handle like Hill or Kobe:






Here's Kobe shaking his head after breaking Pippen BADLY in 99' - Pippen is joke to him... But just a few months earlier, Jordan had no problem stuffing Kobe's crossover in 98' ASG:





The reason MJ was so much better defending quick ballhandlers like Hill, Kobe or Westbrook is because he was a 2-guard, and was frequently the primary, all-game defender on quick point guards.

For example, MJ was matched up against Gary Payton from the TIP-OFF in Game 3 and Game 5 of the NBA Finals and was the main defender throughout the game..

MJ was also the main defender and matched up from the tip-off against Isiah Thomas and Rod Strickland.. And we all know he was matched up from tip-off against Magic, when he guarded Magic for 14 of 20 quarters (70%) in the 1991 Finals.

MJ's far greater experience playing quick ballhandling guards and his superior athleticism made him a better perimeter defender than Pippen..

MJ was also goat at blocking shots from the help side on bigs - see his famous block on Ewing, and his blocks on Hakeem here (only MJ plays defense like that) and here, and shaq here and here.

[Hamtaro CP3KDKG]

.
Grant Hill bullies Pippen super-easy:






Whereas MJ's superior aggressiveness and strength makes Grant Hill work super-hard:






Pippen can't handle Grant off-the-dribble - he can't stay in front:






But MJ can - he stays in front of Grant every step of the way and forces wild shot:






Pippen couldn't handle quick wings with good handle like Hill or Kobe:






Here's Kobe shaking his head after breaking Pippen BADLY in 99' - Pippen is joke to him... But just a few months earlier, Jordan had no problem stuffing Kobe's crossover in 98' ASG:





The reason MJ was so much better defending quick ballhandlers like Hill, Kobe or Westbrook is because he was a 2-guard, and was frequently the primary, all-game defender on quick point guards.

For example, MJ was matched up against Gary Payton from the TIP-OFF in Game 3 and Game 5 of the NBA Finals and was the main defender throughout the game..

MJ was also the main defender and matched up from the tip-off against Isiah Thomas and Rod Strickland.. And we all know he was matched up from tip-off against Magic, when he guarded Magic for 14 of 20 quarters (70%) in the 1991 Finals.

MJ's far greater experience playing quick ballhandling guards and his superior athleticism made him a better perimeter defender than Pippen..

MJ was also goat at blocking shots from the help side on bigs - see his famous block on Ewing, and his blocks on Hakeem here (only MJ plays defense like that) and here, and shaq here and here.

Penny and Grant routinely took dumps on Pip. He couldnt handle their first step

Pip could never guard legit PFs/Cs either so his size advantage didnt mean a whole lot. They were always tasked with Ho Grant or Rodman

[Hamtaro CP3KDKG]

How did the Bulls improve on defense after shedding a PRIME Jordan? Face it, he is not a 2 way player.

93 Bulls - 7th ranked defense
94 Bulls - 6th ranked defense

hardly a change babyboi and if u knew anything about that era youd know their rotation was completely different

93 Bulls rotation minus Jordan

Pip
Ho Grant
BJ
Cartwright
Scott
Paxson
Stacey
Trent
Perdue

94 Bulls rotation minus Jordan

Pip
Ho Grant
BJ
Myers
Kukoc
Wennington
Kerr
Longley
Cartwright

Pip/Grant/BJ were the only main rotation players from the 93 team still getting significant minutes in 94. Cartwright was the only other common player and he was getting played out of the rotation and only played 40 games that year before the Bulls chose to not re-sign him in FA

[72-10]

yeah 3ball I'm not saying Pippen never had defensiev lapses and I'm not saying that Jordan didn't play defense, but I don't think you're going to convince any of us who watched the second threepeat into thinking that Pippen's defense didn't wreak more havoc over the course of the entire game than Jordan's. Pippen tried more on defense than Jordan did during the second threepeat. Jordan played better defense when it mattered more, but that's about it...

[3ball]

yeah 3ball I'm not saying Pippen never had defensiev lapses and I'm not saying that Jordan didn't play defense, but I don't think you're going to convince any of us who watched the second threepeat into thinking that Pippen's defense didn't wreak more havoc over the course of the entire game than Jordan's. Pippen tried more on defense than Jordan did during the second threepeat. Jordan played better defense when it mattered more, but that's about it...

I don't remember Pippen's defense "wreaking havoc all over the court"

Pippen didn't do that, otherwise the Bulls would've ranked better defensively before Rodman got there in 1996..

before Rodman, Pippen and MJ only gave the Bulls the 7th-ranked defense during the 1st three-peat - many teams had better defensive "help" because the Bulls had no rim protection, few good rebounders, and unathletic guards - 2 good wing defenders doesn't make up for that, which is why Drexler's Blazers had better defenses and also many of Lebron's teams..

So stop exaggerating - Pippen never "wreaked havoc" and was only worth a 7th-ranked defense.. And his DPOY voting during the 1st three-peat were basically the same as the 2nd - he was infact becoming washed up in 1997 and 1998, and was a worse defender those years than the 1st three-peat.

Bottom line: MJ was considered the better defender for the majority of the time they played together - 7 of 9 years according to DPOY voting (2 of those years were ties)

[Nikola_]

How did the Bulls improve on defense after shedding a PRIME Jordan? Face it, he is not a 2 way player.

league wide ppg dropped like 3pts lol, fg% also

[72-10]

I don't remember Pippen's defense "wreaking havoc all over the court"

Pippen didn't do that, otherwise the Bulls would've ranked better defensively before Rodman got there in 1996..

before Rodman, Pippen and MJ only gave the Bulls the 7th-ranked defense during the 1st three-peat - many teams had better defensive "help" because the Bulls had no rim protection, few good rebounders, and unathletic guards - 2 good wing defenders doesn't make up for that, which is why Drexler's Blazers had better defenses and also many of Lebron's teams..

So stop exaggerating - Pippen never "wreaked havoc" and was only worth a 7th-ranked defense.. And his DPOY voting during the 1st three-peat were basically the same as the 2nd - he was infact becoming washed up in 1997 and 1998, and was a worse defender those years than the 1st three-peat.

Bottom line: MJ was considered the better defender for the majority of the time they played together - 7 of 9 years according to DPOY voting (2 of those years were ties)

do you realize that I didn't really disagree with your thread title?

but I disgree with your analysis of Pippen

[3ball]

do you realize that I didn't really disagree with your thread title?

but I disgree with your analysis of Pippen

i just think he's an overrated defender - he's been inflated defensively in hindsight, but wasn't lauded so much at the time..

I personally think the inflation is because new fans couldn't figure out how such an underwhelming roster won 6 rings, so they chalk up the winning (despite lack of offensive firepower) to Pippen's defense.

but if he was so great, why did the Bulls only have the #7 defense during the 1st three-peat?

why does he only have 1 year where he ranked #2 in dpoy voting?

why are there scores of games where he's getting destroyed?

where are his "signature series" where he locked someone up as the primary defender?

the reality is that MJ held nearly every opposing SG he faced in the playoffs to 30-40% shooting.. literally.. so he's the one with the signature series locking guys up, but no one talks about it because they're so enamored with his offense.

[3ball]

there's no actual proof that pippen was a better defender than Iggy, Shawn Marion or other good defenders... The winning spotlight simply gave Pippen accolades

Pippen has zero signature series as the primary defender where he locked anyone down like Iggy locked down lebron

So Pippen never shut anyone down as the primary defender or yielded great 2-way teams, so there's no proof that he was a better defender than Iggy, Shawn Marion or other good defenders

Btw, notice that MJ was top 5 DPOY and scoring champ every year from 88-98' - that's the top level on both sides of the ball for 11 years