Kareem vs Lebron (The definitive case for Lebron)

[Shaquille O'Neal]

You're just going to ignore the fact that Kareem had Oscar by his side, Kobe had Shaq and Kawhi had Duncan coming into the league

I'll give you Shaq for Kobe. Duncan was 38 though in the 2014 series during Kawhi's 2nd year FMVP. All I'm saying is age 22 Kobe/Kawhi/Duncan/Kareem went to the finals and won. Played better or at least as well as they did in the regular season. LBJ's numbers were way down and they lost. I didn't expect Lebron to win in 07, but 22PPG on 35% shooting? 23 turnovers in 4 games? 4 for 20 from 3? 20/29 FT? Lebron was a disaster, and had 4 full years under his belt.

[Phoenix]

So you criticize LeBron for losing in the 2007 Finals?

I don't think either Lebron or the Cavs in 2007 were actually ready to be in the finals, and in a stronger east ( like in 2008, 2009, 2010) they wouldn't have been in such a position. I don't buy into the youth/experience angle commonly used as an excuse, because that didn't seem to be a hindrance through the east playoffs. It sure as hell wasn't a hindrance when he went off against Detroit.

[Turbo Slayer]

I don't think either Lebron or the Cavs in 2007 were actually ready to be in the finals, and in a stronger east ( like in 2008, 2009, 2010) they wouldn't have been in such a position. I don't buy into the youth/experience angle commonly used as an excuse, because that didn't seem to be a hindrance through the east playoffs. It sure as hell wasn't a hindrance when he went off against Detroit.

I agree. The 2007 Finals loss against LeBron shouldn't be used as a major boost to LeBron''s legacy but it shouldn't be used as criticism or a stain on his legacy either.

The fact that he was able to eliminate a good Pistons team and carried the whole team to the Finals with Larry Hughes as his 2nd option is amazing and he deserves credit for that.

[OrlandoMagicGuy]

LeBron had no business being in the 2007 finals,the eastern conference was obviously weaker than the western conference.The West had Kobe's Lakers/Duncan's Spurs/Nash's Suns/Carmelo's Nuggets/Deron's Jazz/Yao's Rockets.

[SouBeachTalents]

LeBron had no business being in the 2007 finals,the eastern conference was obviously weaker than the western conference.The West had Kobe's Lakers/Duncan's Spurs/Nash's Suns/Carmelo's Nuggets/Deron's Jazz/Yao's Rockets.

'07 was just a weak year for the league. You had 3 legitimate contenders (Spurs, Suns, Mavs), one of whom was beaten badly by an 8 seed

I don't think either Lebron or the Cavs in 2007 were actually ready to be in the finals, and in a stronger east ( like in 2008, 2009, 2010) they wouldn't have been in such a position. I don't buy into the youth/experience angle commonly used as an excuse, because that didn't seem to be a hindrance through the east playoffs. It sure as hell wasn't a hindrance when he went off against Detroit.

LeBron honestly didn't even go off against Detroit. That Game 5 performance has created such a misconception about his playoff run, where people are now under the impression he put forth some herculean effort to take the Cavs to the Finals. Outside of Game 5, he only averaged 21 ppg the rest of the series. You could legitimately argue '07 was LeBron's worst playoff run. The fact he could take that weak of a team to the Finals, not even playing that well, only emphasizes how awful the conference was that season.

And btw Phoenix, what I said doesn't apply to you, it's just how I feel people look back at it now in general

[Roundball_Rock]

This is really weak. You cherry picked some games and stats. Let's look at the 1974 finals against Cowens (a HOF player, not the cream puffs some other legends faced in the finals) as an example:

Kareem: 33/12/5 on 52%
Cowens: 23/10/5 on 44%

Basketball is a team sport. How did their best teammates do?

Havlicek: 26/8/5 on 43%
Oscar: 12/4/8 on 43%

It is true Cowens outscored and outrebounded Kareem in Game 7--by 2 points and 1 rebound. Anyone who watches that series will see the immense defensive attention the Celtics put on Kareem. Cowens did not have to deal with anything close to that. So it took Kareem getting doubled and tripled all the time to "hold" him to 33/12/5.

Kareem is the GOAT. LeBron is top 5 so he has a case over him but it is a weak one. Where does LeBron exceed KAJ? Kareem has the better resume across the board. Kareem has 6 MVPs (1st), LeBron 4 (tied for 4th). They both had similarly long runs as the best player. Kareem was a MVP level player for 17 years and legit all-star for 18. LeBron may catch or surpass him in these but has yet to do so. Kareem probably was more dominant in his prime but I can see the argument for LeBron.

in terms of peak play he's not even in the same tier as LeBron or Jordan

Kareem (1970-1980): 28/14/5 with 4 blocks and a steal.
Jordan (1987-1998): 32/6/5 with 3 steals and a block.
LeBron (2006-2016): 28/7/7 with 2 steals and a block.

It is funny how the center matches the guard in assists. Jordan scores more--but on a ton more shots. He takes 24 a game, Kareem 21 and LeBron 20. Kareem has the most unstoppable move in history, they don't.

MVPs: Kareem 6, Jordan 5, LeBron 4. So the less dominant guy won more MVPs?

I mean dude literally missed the playoffs twice in his absolute peak

His team went 3-14 without him (14 win pace) but 35-30 with him (44 win pace) in 75'. They missed it in 76' in LA under a weird rule. They had a top 4 record but 2 teams from each division got in so they missed out. This was after LA gave up an all-star, a 16/11 center, and the #2 and #8 picks for him. It is unfortunate Kareem gets hit for team results in the 70's because he did right by Milwaukee. He could have left as a free agent and joined an intact team like LeBron and others.

And he wasn't even the best player on his team for 4/6 championships

1982: Kareem 25/11/5 at age 34, Magic 19/10/10 at age 22. Magic 8th in MVP, Kareem 10th as they get only token votes. Nixon is 18/2/8 and Wilkes 21/5/2.

1985: Kareem 22/8/3 at age 37, Magic 18/6/13 at age 25. Magic 2nd in MVP, Kareem 4th but they are in a close pack with Moses (206-264 votes) far behind Bird's 763.

Kareem was who the offense was run through until the 1987 season but you could argue an ancient Kareem was equal to prime Magic from 1982-1986. The same argument can be thrown back at LeBron this year with Davis, though...

The last 2 weren't even close, Kareem was a role player by then

He wasn't a role player in 1987. He averaged 18 ppg in the season, 19 ppg in the playoffs, and 22 in the finals. In 1988 he was a role player but that was year 19 and he was 39 years old. He was no longer MVP caliber in 87' but still a legit all-star.

[Roundball_Rock]

but what puts Jordan above him is the fact that he won all 6 championships as the #1 option,three-peated twice in the 90s

In other words, he is better because he had a better team and weak competition on opposing teams. Was MJ the GM and coach?

Kareem never faced less than 3 HOF players. Jordan faced 1 HOF in half his finals.

You're just going to ignore the fact that Kareem had Oscar by his side

True, but Oscar was 19/6/8 in his first year in Milwaukee and 13/4/6 when they made the finals again in 74'. He was 31/13/12 at his peak for context.

[Phoenix]

'07 was just a weak year for the league. You had 3 legitimate contenders (Spurs, Suns, Mavs), one of whom was beaten badly by an 8 seed

LeBron honestly didn't even go off against Detroit. That Game 5 performance has created such a misconception about his playoff run, where people are now under the impression he put forth some herculean effort to take the Cavs to the Finals. Outside of Game 5, he only averaged 21 ppg the rest of the series. You could legitimately argue '07 was LeBron's worst playoff run. The fact he could take that weak of a team to the Finals, not even playing that well, only emphasizes how awful the conference was that season.

And btw Phoenix, what I said doesn't apply to you, it's just how I feel people look back at it now in general

Yes, I know that 2007 Lebron's playoff run wasn't particularly epic outside of that game that everyone remembers. If memory serves his east playoff run was something like 25ppg on 44% or something to that effect. We're not talking otherworldly performance there. I mean, Lebron in 2008/9/10 was a better player and didn't get to the finals. I've always looked at that run as somewhat of an aberration and an indictment of the east that season. It was an inbetween year between the Pistons and Heat coming off their peak window as contenders and before the rise of the Celtics and Dwights Orlando squad. So we agree on that premise.

When I look back at that time period Wade was actually having better runs both in 2005( before he got injured) and 2006. People remember Wade's 2006 finals, but Wade 'arrived' as a big playoff gamer the season before ( and showed flashes as a rookie even with other veterans around him). You're a Heat guy so you no doubt don't need to be sold on that idea.

[SouBeachTalents]

Yes, I know that 2007 Lebron's playoff run wasn't particularly epic outside of that game that everyone remembers. If memory serves his east playoff run was something like 25ppg on 44% or something to that effect. We're not talking otherworldly performance there. I mean, Lebron in 2008/9/10 was a better player and didn't get to the finals. I've always looked at that run as somewhat of an aberration and an indictment of the east that season. It was an inbetween year between the Pistons and Heat coming off their peak window as contenders and before the rise of the Celtics and Dwights Orlando squad. So we agree on that premise.

When I look back at that time period Wade was actually having better runs both in 2005( before he got injured) and 2006. People remember Wade's 2006 finals, but Wade 'arrived' as a big playoff gamer the season before ( and showed flashes as a rookie even with other veterans around him). You're a Heat guy so you no doubt don't need to be sold on that idea.

Wade was also better against Boston in 2010 than either LeBron or Kobe. '07 was obviously an extremely embarrassing result, but considering he was coming off an injury and just wasn't right physically until the '08 Olympics, I don't hold it too much against him.

The only playoff run I felt he was a disappointment in was '09, where he had clear dip in performance after his legendary season, losing to a pretty mediocre Hawk team that got obliterated in the next round

[Shaquille O'Neal]

Kareem never faced less than 3 HOF players. Jordan faced 1 HOF in half his finals.

Fact check:

1991: 3 HOF: Magic, Worthy, Divac
1992: Clyde
1993: Barkley
1996: Gary Payton
1997: 2 HOF: Malone/Stockton
1998: 2 HOF: Malone/Stockton

HOF players he beat in the playoffs: Too many to list. Include Reggie Miller, Ewing, Mourning, Chris Mullen, Isiah Thomas, Joe Dumars, Dominique, etc.

[Phoenix]

Wade was also better against Boston in 2010 than either LeBron or Kobe. '07 was obviously an extremely embarrassing result, but considering he was coming off an injury and just wasn't right physically until the '08 Olympics, I don't hold it too much against him.

The only playoff run I felt he was a disappointment in was '09, where he had clear dip in performance after his legendary season, losing to a pretty mediocre Hawk team that got obliterated in the next round

And in 2011 when the Heat got past the Celtics. I don't feel like Lebron created much separation between himself and Wade until 2012 onwards. From 2003 to 2011, when healthy, Wade to me was always right there with him.

[OrlandoMagicGuy]

In other words, he is better because he had a better team Was MJ the GM and coach?

Magic/Worthy/Wilkes/Nixon/Byron/Cooper/McAdoo >>>>>>>> Scottie/Horace/Rodman/Harper/BJ/Cartwright/Kukoc/Paxson

Jordan MADE Pippen.He was Jordan's only all-star teammate,he made the all-star in 4/6 of the bulls championships.The Bulls were a superteam because of MICHAEL JORDAN,not the other way around.Barkley's Suns were an overall better team than the Bulls in 93,but lost in the finals due to Jordan going apeshit and averaging a whopping 41 pts on 51% shooting.

and weak competition on opposing teams.Kareem never faced less than 3 HOF players.Jordan faced 1 HOF in half his finals.

93 Suns - Barkley/Johnson/Majerle/Dumas/Chambers/Ceballos/Ainge (62-20)

98 Jazz - Malone/Stockton/Hornacek/Russell (62-20)

92 Trail Blazers - Drexler/Porter/Kersey/Duckworth/Robinson/Ainge (57-25)

97 Jazz - Malone/Stockton/Hornacek/Russell (64-18)

92 Knicks - Ewing/X-Man/Starks/Wilkins/Jackson/Mason/Oakley (51-31)

96 SuperSonics - Payton/Kemp/Schrempf/Hawkins/Perkins/McMillan (64-18)

98 Pacers -Reggie/Jackson/Davis/Mullin/Smits/Davis/Rose (59-23)

96 Magic - Shaq/Penny/3-D/Anderson/Horace (60-22)

91 Lakers - Magic/Worthy/Byron/Perkins/Divac (58-24)

91 Pistons - Zeke/Dumars/Laimbeer/Vinnie/Worm/Aguire (50-32)

97 Heat - Zo/Hardaway/Mashburn/Majerle (61-21)

You replace Jordan with Kareem on those Bulls teams they aren't winning 6 whereas Michael is winning multiple championships with Magic.

[Roundball_Rock]

Fact check:

1991: 3 HOF: Magic, Worthy, Divac
1992: Clyde
1993: Barkley
1996: Gary Payton
1997: 2 HOF: Malone/Stockton
1998: 2 HOF: Malone/Stockton

Yeah, so I was correct. Half (3) of those (6) finals featured 1 HOFer. Chicago had 2, 2, and 3-4 in those same series (if we count Divac and Mullin for the opposing teams we might as well count Parish if we are counting HOFers who weren't playing HOF ball at the time).

HOF players he beat in the playoffs: Too many to list. Include Reggie Miller, Ewing, Mourning, Chris Mullen, Isiah Thomas, Joe Dumars, Dominique, etc.

This is one of the most overblown talking points. You can do the same for any legend who played 10+ seasons.

It looks worse in context. Mullin was a washed up role player by 98' on a team whose best player was basically that era's Klay (i.e., Miller would be the #3 option today or in the 80s). Wilkins was on a terrible team and got swept in the first round in 93'. Ewing played with...John Starks as his second option, not a superstar like MJ did. Drexler's second option was Terry Porter. As Drexler said, give him Scottie and see how many chips he wins. Barkley had Kevin Johnson, unfortunately KJ didn't show up for the finals (he got benched at one point as Russilo and Simmons have discussed in their recent episodes).

Utah had 2 HOF. That's nice...except the other guys had 3 (if you don't count Parish for 97').

MJ even faced one team (Cleveland) in the ECF which had 0 HOF players.

Kareem was facing teams with equal or greater numbers of HOF players on the other side. So was LeBron for that matter. We can't keep looking at team results in a vacuum if we are going to make team results everything.

He was Jordan's only all-star teammate

He played with about 10 all-stars. Only 1 made the all-star team alongside MJ. What does that say about MJ?

[deathawaitu]

Stopped reading after the first sentence

No one seriously ranks Lebron at #2 or #3 beside the media and Lebron stans

It's an insult to Kareem to even have Lebron mentioned in the same league as him.

Most people have Lebron exactly where he should be 8-12

Lebrons fans claiming he is the Goat has the loudest voice, but they are the minorities of the fans

[Hey Yo]

One player threatened to sit out an entire season if he wasn't traded.


The other has never demanded to be traded.