Would Kareem had won all those chips in place of MJ?

[tpols]

Centers, for the most part, cannot dribble to an open space to get their shot. They need a wing player to get them the ball where they'll take that shot. If you think about Kahwi in last year's playoff versus Philly where he caught, dribbled to the corner and shot the game winner. Centers can't do that.

im watching old kareem tape, and i think the fundamental issue is they dont really move off ball. They run to their spot, jostle for position, and catch it there everytime. The defense collapses, and its up to their teammates to make long jumpers.

Elite guards OTOH completely dictate the motion of the offense inside and out. MJ could catch it at the top and dribble you down. He could catch it midrange, and post you. He could fake both options and cut back door for a dunk. There's simply far more diversity offensively.

And if we're talking crunchtime? it's not even close. Perimeter players have ALWAYS been clutcher than big men, and that is often the deciding factor.

[DoctorP]

How many championships have been won with teams whose best player was a center? How many by teams whose best player was a shooting guard? This isn't even close.

The focus has been on offense but the other side of the court is on defense a dominant center is going to have more impact on the game than a dominant shooting guard.

Offensively, a guard has to get close to the basket to get a high percentage shot. A center is already there. Mid-range is an option for a guard but those aren't great percentage shots. People also assume MJ had the ball parachuted into his hands. He had to get the ball passed to him too.



For a basket it would be KAJ until he got really old. Kareem's sky hook is the easiest 2 points in history.

None since Shaq, basically. Almost 20 years. You just killed your own point.

[3ball]

All of mj's rings required goat volume and scoring champion production - Kareem only won as the scoring champ once in his peak season of 71'... That's the only season that he matched MJ as a scorer, so that's the only year he could win even one ring with those bulls

27-28 ppg for a playoff run won't win a single ring on the bulls..... 30 ppg wouldn't win it most years.... (And 35 ppg wouldn't work if it's ball-dominant)

[dankok8]

Kareem definitely could have won a whole bunch of rings in place of Jordan on the Bulls. Would he win six or less or more is hard to say but the 90's Bulls with prime Kareem on the team would be favorites for the title every year. People forget that a 38-39 year old Kareem plastered young Hakeem and Ewing in 1986 putting up like 35 ppg on 60% shooting. Even the Rockets with their twin towers of Sampson and Hakeem could do very little to stop a very old Jabbar who lost almost all his quickness and stamina. Thing is the 90's Bulls rarely ever faced dominant bigs. Ewing was one and he would get absolutely owned by Kareem. 90's Bulls never played against Hakeem or Robinson in the finals. Who would stop Kareem? Divac? Duckworth? Ostertag? LMAO... Buck Williams on 92 Blazers was one of the few good big man defenders.

Kareem is a GOAT-level candidate on the level of Jordan, Lebron, Russell... The reason he only won 2 rings as the absolute top dog is he had very subpar teams around him for about 8 prime years. By 1972, Oscar was already getting injured and old and until Magic came he never had proper support. In fact from 1972 to 1979 inclusive, Kareem never had a healthy all-star sidekick in the playoffs. And he faced some great teams like 1972 Lakers, 1974 Celtics, 1977 Blazers...

And you have to value what he did in the 80's. Yes he and Magic were 1a and 1b but Kareem was a monster. See the 1985 Finals. No center other than Shaq or Hakeem had a finals like a 38-year old Kareem mustered and we know Kareem's legendary longevity and his winning credentials from day 1 in the NBA.

Some young ignorant folks on here... Not saying KAJ is better than MJ or Lebron but it's debatable whether you like it or not. He was that good.

[Roundball_Rock]

None since Shaq, basically. Almost 20 years. You just killed your own point.

This is a question about a team in the 80's and 90's so what happened in the 2000's and beyond is irrelevant.

Before Kobe I believe the only team to win with a SG as their best player were the Bulls. The lion's share of championship teams were built around centers.

And if we're talking crunchtime? it's not even close. Perimeter players have ALWAYS been clutcher than big men, and that is often the deciding factor.

We are talking Kareem, though, not Ewing or Dwight Howard. Kareem was clutch as hell. Why not? He had the most reliable shot in NBA history.

The big difference between KAJ and MJ is longevity and durability. Kareem gives you a 17 year window of dominance to win and you can built a contender around him quicker than around a SG, as Chicago and LA later with Kobe discovered.

[Roundball_Rock]

Kareem definitely could have won a whole bunch of rings in place of Jordan on the Bulls. Would he win six or less or more is hard to say but the 90's Bulls with prime Kareem on the team would be favorites for the title every year. People forget that a 38-39 year old Kareem plastered young Hakeem and Ewing in 1986 putting up like 35 ppg on 60% shooting. Even the Rockets with their twin towers of Sampson and Hakeem could do very little to stop a very old Jabbar who lost almost all his quickness and stamina. Thing is the 90's Bulls rarely ever faced dominant bigs. Ewing was one and he would get absolutely owned by Kareem. 90's Bulls never played against Hakeem or Robinson in the finals. Who would stop Kareem? Divac? Duckworth? Ostertag? LMAO... Buck Williams on 92 Blazers was one of the few good big man defenders.

Kareem is a GOAT-level candidate on the level of Jordan, Lebron, Russell... The reason he only won 2 rings as the absolute top dog is he had very subpar teams around him for about 8 prime years. By 1972, Oscar was already getting injured and old and until Magic came he never had proper support. In fact from 1972 to 1979 inclusive, Kareem never had a healthy all-star sidekick in the playoffs. And he faced some great teams like 1972 Lakers, 1974 Celtics, 1977 Blazers...

And you have to value what he did in the 80's. Yes he and Magic were 1a and 1b but Kareem was a monster. See the 1985 Finals. No center other than Shaq or Hakeem had a finals like a 38-year old Kareem mustered and we know Kareem's legendary longevity and his winning credentials from day 1 in the NBA.

Some young ignorant folks on here... Not saying KAJ is better than MJ or Lebron but it's debatable whether you like it or not. He was that good.

[tpols]

Kareem definitely could have won a whole bunch of rings in place of Jordan on the Bulls. Would he win six or less or more is hard to say but the 90's Bulls with prime Kareem on the team would be favorites for the title every year. People forget that a 38-39 year old Kareem plastered young Hakeem and Ewing in 1986 putting up like 35 ppg on 60% shooting. Even the Rockets with their twin towers of Sampson and Hakeem could do very little to stop a very old Jabbar who lost almost all his quickness and stamina. Thing is the 90's Bulls rarely ever faced dominant bigs. Ewing was one and he would get absolutely owned by Kareem. 90's Bulls never played against Hakeem or Robinson in the finals. Who would stop Kareem? Divac? Duckworth? Ostertag? LMAO... Buck Williams on 92 Blazers was one of the few good big man defenders.

Kareem is a GOAT-level candidate on the level of Jordan, Lebron, Russell... The reason he only won 2 rings as the absolute top dog is he had very subpar teams around him for about 8 prime years. By 1972, Oscar was already getting injured and old and until Magic came he never had proper support. In fact from 1972 to 1979 inclusive, Kareem never had a healthy all-star sidekick in the playoffs. And he faced some great teams like 1972 Lakers, 1974 Celtics, 1977 Blazers...

And you have to value what he did in the 80's. Yes he and Magic were 1a and 1b but Kareem was a monster. See the 1985 Finals. No center other than Shaq or Hakeem had a finals like a 38-year old Kareem mustered and we know Kareem's legendary longevity and his winning credentials from day 1 in the NBA.

Some young ignorant folks on here... Not saying KAJ is better than MJ or Lebron but it's debatable whether you like it or not. He was that good.

everybody that reps kareem only talks about what he did as an old player.

you NEVER hear them bragging about his peak or prime lol.

That's because he did jack shit in the 70's, which were far worse than the 90's, where MJ went 6/6.

[dankok8]

everybody that reps kareem only talks about what he did as an old player.

you NEVER hear them bragging about his peak or prime lol.

That's because he did jack shit in the 70's, which were far worse than the 90's, where MJ went 6/6.

Far worse in what way? The average title-winning team in the 70's had like 3 HOFers. Because the league was smaller good teams were absolutely stacked and if you had no healthy all-star sidekick which was Kareem's situation from 1972-1979, it was incredibly difficult nigh near impossible to win a title. And what do you mean no one brags. No one brags because he won 2 titles as the absolute top dog which is lacking behind other GOAT candidates but that can be explained by his circumstances. If Jordan never got Pippen from 1988 to 1998 he probably doesn't win a single title.

[Roundball_Rock]

The "rings as the man" thing is a bogus attack. You only hear about it regarding KAJ because his record is impeccable and they can't find anything about him to criticize.

The first tell is no one even knows how many "rings as the man" he has since it is a fake category. The second tell is "rings as the man" never comes up with Magic. He gets full credit for all 5 rings (as does Kobe).

Why are people acting like "rings as the man" grow on trees, that having 2 or 3 is terrible? LeBron and Wilt are GOAT candidates with 3 and 2 total rings, respectively. Meanwhile Duncan has 4 and never comes up in the GOAT discussion...

"Rings as the Man":


Russell 11
Jordan 6
Duncan 4
LeBron 3
Bird 3
Kareem 2-3
Kobe 2
Hakeem 2
Wilt 1
Oscar 0
West 0
Dr. J 0

That's because he did jack shit in the 70's

He won 5 MVP's in the 70's alone. Jordan and Russell won 5 in their entire careers. Wilt and LeBron have "only" 4.

[Roundball_Rock]

Far worse in what way? The average title-winning team in the 70's had like 3 HOFers. Because the league was smaller good teams were absolutely stacked and if you had no healthy all-star sidekick which was Kareem's situation from 1972-1979, it was incredibly difficult nigh near impossible to win a title.

Compare that to when MJ was winning. You could be a contender or champ with John Starks, Rik Smits, Terry Porter, Otis Thorpe as your second option. An old Jeff Hornacek as your second scorer=2 finals trips. That type of team would be lucky to win 30 games in the 70's. 2000's was a similar story. Teams won with Billups as their best player and teams were in the finals with guys like Rashard Lewis or whoever it was (Z? Gibson?) on the 07' Cavs as your second best player. Teams with Aaron McKie as the second scorer.

[tpols]

Far worse in what way? The average title-winning team in the 70's had like 3 HOFers. Because the league was smaller good teams were absolutely stacked and if you had no healthy all-star sidekick which was Kareem's situation from 1972-1979, it was incredibly difficult nigh near impossible to win a title. And what do you mean no one brags. No one brags because he won 2 titles as the absolute top dog which is lacking behind other GOAT candidates but that can be explained by his circumstances. If Jordan never got Pippen from 1988 to 1998 he probably doesn't win a single title.

the 70s are very commonly known as the weakest era in basketball. Drug fueled and talent split between NBA and ABA.

Jordan didnt need pippen to win, he needed anything as he barely lost in the late 80s when pippen played like trash in the playoffs.

The Bull's couldve drafted any decent all star level player over the years and it would've put them over the top.

With Kevin Johnson (7th pick to pippen's 5th) in the late 80s instead of Pippen? they probably wouldve won before '91. KJ popped off far more early on.

[Soundwave]

It's possible but you can do this a hundred different ways.

Does Jordan win 2 titles with Wade and Bosh? Probably more. Kobe probably wins 2 titles in that situation too. How many titles does Jordan win with Magic and Worthy as no.2 and no.3 options?

[OrlandoMagicGuy]

"Rings as the Man":


Russell 11
Jordan 6
Duncan 4
LeBron 3
Bird 3
Kareem 2-3
Kobe 2
Hakeem 2
Wilt 1
Oscar 0
West 0
Dr. J 0

If Bill Russell has 11 rings as the man why isn't he the GOAT?

[3ball]

Zero rings because Kareem can't handle the ridiculous volume required of the Bulls' #1 option, as needed to carry the lowest-scoring casts of all-time

[Soundwave]

The "rings as the man" thing is a bogus attack. You only hear about it regarding KAJ because his record is impeccable and they can't find anything about him to criticize.

The first tell is no one even knows how many "rings as the man" he has since it is a fake category. The second tell is "rings as the man" never comes up with Magic. He gets full credit for all 5 rings (as does Kobe).

Why are people acting like "rings as the man" grow on trees, that having 2 or 3 is terrible? LeBron and Wilt are GOAT candidates with 3 and 2 total rings, respectively. Meanwhile Duncan has 4 and never comes up in the GOAT discussion...

"Rings as the Man":


Russell 11
Jordan 6
Duncan 4
LeBron 3
Bird 3
Kareem 2-3
Kobe 2
Hakeem 2
Wilt 1
Oscar 0
West 0
Dr. J 0



He won 5 MVP's in the 70's alone. Jordan and Russell won 5 in their entire careers. Wilt and LeBron have "only" 4.

I think to be "the man" on your team you need to lead the team offensively and the be the lead scorer ... Russell wasn't that on the Celtics. If the ball is going somewhere else when your team really needs a basket, that kind of sticks out like a sore thumb in my view. Great, great defensive player but he never had even a full season above 19 ppg and this in the 60s where it was lets be honest easier to score.

Every other player on that list was responsible for being the go to guy on their teams offence.

Also Shaq should be there with 3.