Would Kareem had won all those chips in place of MJ?

[3ball]

I think to be "the man" on your team you need to lead the team offensively and the be the lead scorer ... Russell wasn't that on the Celtics. If the ball is going somewhere else when your team really needs a basket, that kind of sticks out like a sore thumb in my view. Great, great defensive player but he never had even a full season above 19 ppg and this in the 60s where it was lets be honest easier to score.

Even without shooting threes, the inception of the 3-point line put a marker on the ground that players stood near, which created more spacing than previously.

Thats why good team ortg's only occurred AFTER the 3-point line was introduced - ortg immediately increased to modern levels once the line was added in 1980..

Essentially, the 3-point line allowed good team offense, which is why all 40 league MVP's since 1980 have been dominant offensive players - so we know Russell wouldn't be MVP-caliber today.. Since Russell isn't MVP-caliber in the modern era, Jordan's 6 rings as the best player is the goat accomplishment of modern basketball/3-pointer basketball

[The Iron Fist]

Kareem was 6-4 against better teams. He would have feasted.

[3ball]

Kareem was 6-4 against better teams. He would have feasted.

Kareem can't take the volume required

Only 71' Kareem could win because he won the title as scoring champ, like MJ always did... Otherwise, 80's Kareem couldn't handle the high volume required to win with that cast

That's why only MJ could win most of those rings - 4 of them required 25 fga at 45% - only mj can do that and it isn't a one-off

[OrlandoMagicGuy]

Winning 6 rings as the best player while being the league scorer and making the all-defensive first teams 6 times would be quite the task along with consistently averaging 30+ pts in regular season/playoffs/finals

[The Iron Fist]

Kareem can't take the volume required

Only 71' Kareem could win because he won the title as scoring champ, like MJ always did... Otherwise, 80's Kareem couldn't handle the high volume required to win with that cast

That's why only MJ could win most of those rings - 4 of them required 25 fga at 45% - only mj can do that and it isn't a one-off

Kareem never needed volume. He was a team player from the start. His success from high school to college proved that already.

[Roundball_Rock]

If Bill Russell has 11 rings as the man why isn't he the GOAT?

Great question. The people who always bring up rings oddly then say MJ is GOAT. Their own criteria says Russell>>>>>>>>>>>everybody else.

I think to be "the man" on your team you need to lead the team offensively and the be the lead scorer

Then Kareem was "the man" easily for 4 rings. Riley himself wrote in his book that Kareem was the first option until the 87' season. You identified a criteria. The Kareem detractors never do since "rings as the man" is a weak sauce excuse to diminish KAJ than a legit rationale.

Also Shaq should be there with 3.

I know I had forgotten someone! Agreed.

the 70s are very commonly known as the weakest era in basketball.

Were teams winning with Otis Thorpe as their second best player in the 70's or in the 90's? Perception isn't always reality.

Jordan didnt need pippen to win, he needed anything as he barely lost in the late 80s when pippen played like trash in the playoffs

So surely MJ won the game where Pippen missed 47 minutes and won the migraine game, right?

With Kevin Johnson (7th pick to pippen's 5th) in the late 80s instead of Pippen? they probably wouldve won before '91. KJ popped off far more early on.

Pippen and Johnson both became all-stars in the same year.

It wouldn't have been Kevin Johnson. It probably would have been Kenny Smith with Pippen going 6th to Sacramento. How many rings does Mike win with Kenny Smith?

The Bull's couldve drafted any decent all star level player over the years and it would've put them over the top.

You mean like Oakley? MJ won what with him?

It is not easy to draft all-star players (unless you are stuck in the lottery). The second options for other superstars then were John Starks, Terry Porter, Otis Thorpe, Sean Elliot, Kevin Willis, Brad Daughtery, Rik Smits, Penny, Kemp. So not exactly beasts outside of Penny and Daughtery, and they were #1 picks that Chicago would not have (and even if Chicago hypothetically did, MJ wins much less with either guy than with Pip). Maybe they draft Kemp late but unlikely. If you have prime MJ you are trying to win now, not drafting a high schooler who wouldn't become an all-star until 94' (when MJ would be retired).

MJ fans are spoiled thinking players like Pippen were the second guys on every contender.

[OrlandoMagicGuy]

Great question. The people who always bring up rings oddly then say MJ is GOAT. Their own criteria says Russell>>>>>>>>>>>everybody else.

I think it's because he was the clear cut #1 option in all 6 of the rings - (30+ ppg scorer - elite defensive player - 1 all-star teammate - role player teammates)

Then Kareem was "the man" easily for 4 rings. Riley himself wrote in his book that Kareem was the first option until the 87' season. You identified a criteria. The Kareem detractors never do since "rings as the man" is a weak sauce excuse to diminish KAJ than a legit rationale.

Kareem was robbed of a few finals mvps,Magic had no business winning it in that first championship.

[dankok8]

the 70s are very commonly known as the weakest era in basketball. Drug fueled and talent split between NBA and ABA.

Jordan didnt need pippen to win, he needed anything as he barely lost in the late 80s when pippen played like trash in the playoffs.

The Bull's couldve drafted any decent all star level player over the years and it would've put them over the top.

With Kevin Johnson (7th pick to pippen's 5th) in the late 80s instead of Pippen? they probably wouldve won before '91. KJ popped off far more early on.

The NBA-ABA talent split doesn't have anything to do with talent concentration on the best teams. Like I said so many 70's NBA teams were insanely stacked with talent. The drug use was rampant from the late 70's well into the 80's. MJ's teammate Orlando Woolridge was a drug user and got banned in 1987 IIRC. Weak era or whatever other narrative you wanna push sure but 1970/1973 Knicks, 1971 Bucks, 1972 Lakers, 1973/1974 Celtics, 1977 Blazers are considered among the greatest teams in league history.

You mention Kevin Johnson but in 1970 and from 1972-1979, Kareem never played with a KJ-caliber player. The one year he had an older but still good Oscar in 1971, he steamrolled to the title and his Bucks were going to win 70 games if they didn't rest the last few games of the regular season. The one year Kareem had help in the 70's, he won a title in dominant fashion.

And I don't want to disparage MJ because he was amazing but no he didn't barely lose in the 80's. Lost to the Bucks, swept twice by the Celtics, and beat by the Pistons twice (once handily and once in a somewhat competitive series). Those are his 80's playoff accomplishments. Till and after Pippen became an All-NBA performer on both ends of the floor, Jordan has little to show for in his playoff career. Now I wouldn't blame him for it but it is what it is.

[3ball]

Kareem never needed volume. He was a team player from the start. His success from high school to college proved that already.

Kareem would need to shoot MJ's volume because his offensive help would be less - furthermore, the Bulls' cast played at capacity or very close next to MJ, so MJ's volume was needed - and only MJ could shoot well at this volume, so only he could win those rings.

People don't seem to realize that jordan's teammates played at capacity next to him, or close to it - so MJ's volume was needed, and only MJ could shoot well at that volume, or shoot high volume within a championship concept... No one in modern history has any record of shooting efficiently at 25+ shots per game in the Playoffs, except Hakeem in 95' and Kobe in 07' - so these are the only guys that could win rings with those bulls

[The Iron Fist]

Kareem would need to shoot MJ's volume because his offensive help would be less - furthermore, the Bulls' cast played at capacity or very close next to MJ, so MJ's volume was needed - and only MJ could shoot well at this volume, so only he could win those rings.

People don't seem to realize that jordan's teammates played at capacity next to him, or close to it - so MJ's volume was needed, and only MJ could shoot well at that volume, or shoot high volume within a championship concept... No one in modern history has any record of shooting efficiently at 25+ shots per game in the Playoffs, except Hakeem in 95' and Kobe in 07' - so these are the only guys that could win rings with those bulls

Jordan’s offensive help was less because he shot more. This is basic shit. Kareems teams never relied on his volume because his teammates were involved. They were allowed to play in the flow of the game and not worry about taking his shots away.

[SouBeachTalents]

The early 70's were definitely legit, you had the Wilt/West Lakers, Reed/Frazier Knicks, Kareem/Oscar Bucks. But roughly '75-'79 imo that is the weakest stretch in NBA history. Look at some of these teams that were making the Finals.

Rick Barry took a team with a 14 ppg Jamaal Wilkes as his 2nd option and swept the Finals

The 42 win Suns made the Finals the following a year, a team I bet nobody on here could name a single player from without looking it up. I'd make that same wager on the Cavs team the Celtics beat in the ECF

And the Bullets & Sonics that met b2b years in the Finals, does anyone here actually think they'd win a championship in the 80's or 90's?

There's never been a stretch of weaker (but obviously still great) players leading their teams to titles. Rick Barry on probably the worst championship team ever, Dave Cowens, Elvin Hayes, Gus Williams, with Walton obviously being the exception

[3ball]

Jordan’s offensive help was less because he shot more.

^^^ Historically false, because when MJ wasn't there, everyone had the same stats or barely better than their high alongside MJ

So jordan's teammates played to capacity, which means MJ's volume was needed... and only he could shoot well at that volume

No one in modern history has any record of shooting efficiently (45% or better) at 25+ shots per game in the Playoffs, except Hakeem in 95' and Kobe in 07' - so these are the only guys that could win rings with those bulls

his is basic shit. Kareems teams never relied on his volume because his teammates were involved. They were allowed to play in the flow of the game and not worry about taking his shots away.

Magic/Worthy/Scott is far better offensive help than Pippen/Grant/BJ.

That's why Kareem didn't need high volume

[The Iron Fist]

^^^ Historically false, because when MJ wasn't there, everyone had the same stats or barely better than their high alongside MJ

So jordan's teammates played to capacity, which means MJ's volume was needed... and only he could shoot well at that volume

No one in modern history has any record of shooting efficiently (45% or better) at 25+ shots per game in the Playoffs, except Hakeem in 95' and Kobe in 07' - so these are the only guys that could win rings with those bulls




Magic/Worthy/Scott is far better offensive help than Pippen/Grant/BJ.

That's why Kareem didn't need high volume

So Kareem made his teammates better. Yea, we established that already.

[OrlandoMagicGuy]

So Kareem made his teammates better. Yea, we established that already.

Jordan made Scottie

[3ball]

So Kareem made his teammates better. Yea, we established that already.

Magic and Worthy were star #1 picks and didn't need Kareem... So no