Back to work: Post virus break

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https://saltcityhoops.com/bold-jazz-...eality-titles/

Jazz would be legit contenders if Gordon Hayward had stayed. We all think the Jazz are better off now, but we could have a 7-man rotation of Ricky Rubio, Donovan Mitchell, Hayward, Derrick Favors, Rudy Gobert, Royce O’Neale and Joe Ingles right now.

@CCool_CCCool

The offense would suck with Rubio and Favors back in the fold but sure that's a contender.

The Jazz did eventually find a way to replace the departed star with what we can call an upper middle class man’s Hayward. Bojan Bogdanovic is older than Hayward and doesn’t defend as well, but both guys are legit NBA scorers with size who know what it’s like to be on top of the scouting report. That said, the pivot toward Bogdanovic cost Utah Favors and left the frontline uncomfortably thin.

Bojan is a better shooter and maybe a better scorer. Hayward is better at everything else. Hayward might be at the 4 now which is a huge weakness on the current team

That’s just one of several alternate timelines forking off the if-Hayward-stays inflexion point that we need to consider if we’re to buy Mr. CCCool’s premise about the current 7-man core. Would Utah still have Rubio at this point, or would they have eventually wanted to angle for a point guard upgrade anyway, like they did in this version of reality with Mike Conley? Would they have still moved on from Rodney Hood, Alec Burks and Dante Exum (moves that yielded them Jae Crowder, Kyle Korver and Jordan Clarkson, respectively, but also cost them picks), or would a more solid core rotation have afforded them the patience to not part with the assets that those deals cost them?

They gave up on Rubio because they couldn't get past Houston with horrible offense. Don't see how that changes. Hood asked out because he thought he was a lot better than a 6th man which is what he's been since he left and again how does that change? Coach didn't like Burks. Exum sucks! The big question is who would be at pg. Probably wouldn't be able to afford Conley, Hayward and Gobert. Maybe Mitchell? With them being able to play through Hayward as well as others that might have made most sense as it might now anyway

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If we had Quin Snyder when Trey Burke and Enes Kanter were rookies, they would have worked out better. I don’t think Ty Corbin did anything for them.

I also wonder if the drafting would have gone differently on some of those years if we had Quin. Imagine if we had managed to grab Kawhi Leonard, Kemba Walker, or Giannis Antetokounmpo. I’m not saying that Quin has had everything to do with the drafting, but I’m sure he has some sway.

@bigd_84095

Burke sucks. He's a 3rd pg at best. You can't hang that on Ty. Kanter got time as the 4th big with 3 players better than him ahead of him. How does that change? They get rid of their best player Millsap even earlier than they stupidly did? If anything maybe Snyder would have realized Millsap was their best player and they wouldn't have let him go to tank?

Had Kanter been OK with that new pecking order, he could have provided the Jazz with the same stuff he gave OKC, Portland and Boston as a stat-stuffing, high-minute reserve big.

Exactly. Kind of like Hood's role hasn't changed after he asked out. If anything the Jazz overvalued guys when they were here and made those players think they were more than they are

Though I hated it at the time, the rumored Bryon Russell + Donyell Marshall trade for Keith Van Horn could have catapulted us back into contender status.

@IrwinMFletcher8

Donyell was someone they shouldn't have let go. Cheap owner comes into play yet again!

Actually, my own related hot take here is that the Jazz held onto Bryon Russell too long. That was certainly not my view at the time, as a rather un-erudite teenage fan who liked Russell’s dunks and swagger. But if the blogosphere and advanced stats had been more fully deployed during Russell’s career, I think it would have been obvious to more folks that there was a point in time when his trade value exceeded his basketball value.

Russell was one guy I actually thought they let go at the right time even though he had some good years after he left

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https://saltcityhoops.com/bold-takes...cosmic-forces/

But yeah, it seems odd that someone who has been named the very best at something that makes up 50% of a basketball game (defense) for two years running doesn’t really get mentioned in the same breath as the guys who are among the very best at the other 50%. For better or worse, MVP tends to be focused on offensive stars, and on guys who really set the narrative for a particular NBA season.

what is really odd is that he isn't even appreciated in Utah like he should be. The Jazz have been a horrible team without him but keep going on about Hayward, Lindsey, Snyder and Mitchell!

First of all, we just got done talking about how Gobert is firmly a top 10-15 player in the NBA in terms of overall impact. When you get someone that good, the question isn’t whether or not he “fits” your team, but rather who fits with him. All-league impact is by far the hardest thing to replicate or replace, so when you get a player at that level, that’s what you build around.

Yep. We saw with Hill and joe Johnson starting what kind of team should be around their best player and not until this year did they put that team around him. With Favors and Hayward leading the team they were as bad as anyone in the league

Rubio/Gobert and Favors/Gobert worked, it was the trio of them that didn’t.

It worked at making the playoffs as does almost anything with a healthy Gobert. Beyond that it is certainly limited

In particular, the success of the Gobert-Favors duo when Rubio sat is enough to make fans wonder what the offense might have looked like had the Jazz still dealt for Conley but found a way to keep Favors.

the defense would have been better but they wouldn't have one of the best offenses in the league. Need to get someone that can spread the floor and defend

It’s also worth remembering that Hill turned 31 that spring, and has never come close to equaling the career-best numbers he produced with the Jazz, even on a per-minute or per-possession basis. So there’s a case to be made that, in hindsight, it’s good the Jazz didn’t hitch their wagon to that horse just in time for his production to start declining.

He was a perfect fit unlike Ricky

What’s worrisome about the Jazz in this case is that they are probably borderline title contenders at this point, so they have leveraged themselves into this position without a clear path to make that last mini-jump from “on the cusp” to true contention. But there are still a few ways they can get there:

What's worrisome is that they continue to talk about being all in but instead of trying to replace Bojan with Lance Thomas of Moute to shore up their weakness at the 4 they've signed no one

Maybe. I will say that I think the only way they even consider trading him on his current contract is if they have a sense that he’s definitely not coming back. As I wrote above, top-15 players are really, really hard to replace.

sounds like he could be gone since they think Mitchell is a lot better than he is

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https://saltcityhoops.com/bold-takes...s-of-the-past/

Quince is referring to a deal that sent out Blue Edwards (coming off 12.6 points and 38% shooting from three the season prior) and Erick Murdock (4.1 ppg as a deep bench guard) plus a first-round pick in exchange for Jay Humphries (14.0 points and 6.6 assists) and Larry Krystkowiak (9 points, 5 boards).

Sloan didn't like Blue and they thought some crappy white guy was better than Murdock. Les, Crotty, etc.? Humphries had been a good player but sucked here. Liked Larry though

John Crotty (version 2.0) was Stockton’s best backup.

I'd go Mark Jackson though in retrospect I guess he was a problem in the locker room that led to Stockton's retirement and Vaughn. The rest sucked. A big reason the Jazz never did anything

Greg Ostertag was right up there with Mark Eaton, Andrei Kirilenko and Gobert as one of the great defensive Jazz players ever!

Tag was better than Eaton who was a joke

There probably aren’t too many players in between that holy triumvirate and ‘Tag, but the drop-off there is still really steep. Ostertag only had one season (the lockout-shortened ’99 campaign) where he ranked in the top 10 in defensive BPM. I also don’t think Tag was nearly the deterrent that any of those three were. He blocked shots because of the sheer physics involved of being 7-foot-2 and always near the rim, but those three were all more mobile than him and all possessed better understanding of schemes and defensive timing.

Eaton wasn't more mobile than anyone

Stockton > Malone.

I'd take Stockton everyday

The ’98 Jazz were right in the middle of a 6-year period where they won more than 72% of their games. Only three modern teams had a stretch like that and didn’t win at least one title during that span: the ’90s Sonics, the 2001-02 to 2006-07 Mavs1 and the Jazz. In other words, the team you’re talking about can make a case for being the best team ever to not win a title. As interesting as the current group is, they haven’t yet accomplished anything that comes close to the level of the ’90s Jazz. Obviously Rudy Gobert, Donovan Mitchell and others aren’t done writing their respective stories yet, but as of today, the Finals teams sit head and shoulders above their counterparts from any Jazz era, including the modern version.

but what era are they playing in? Both are great offensive teams and mediocre defensive teams. It's closer than you think. Snyder is probably the better coach

Hoffa was… not good.

actually liked him too. He shouldn't have been a lottery pick but he didn't suck like Collins and many others

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But let’s be honest: he earned that second Jazz stint by the way his first one ended: after tearing his ACL on a play, he still hobbled to the hoop to finish the play with a layup before checking out with the season-ending injury. Sloan was a sucker for that type of toughness. Remember, this is the coach who promoted Aleksandar Radojevic — with his whole 61 minutes of NBA experience at that point — to a starting position for the sole reason that he was impressed to see the 7-foot-3 “Rado” dive all the way to hardwood for a loose ball at the end of a blowout loss. I don’t know the exact exchange rate between “7-footer-floor dives” and “finish the play on a busted knee instead of stopping play,” but part of me is surprised Handlogten didn’t get a 7-year extension on the spot.

yep. Jazz aren't known for making moves based on skill and talent

He had other draft misses (Curtis Borchardt, Kirk Snyder, Morris Almond, etc.), but also engineered his way into the top three to get an All-NBA guard, and later selected future All-Stars with the ninth and 47th (twice) picks. C.J. Miles (34th) was a solid NBA contributor for a long time and Wesley Matthews (undrafted) is still producing for a contender, to say nothing of the acquisitions of Mehmet Okur, Carlos Boozer, Matt Harpring, Derrick Favors and more. (Technically we should include Al Jefferson in here, although my own personal KOC-related hot take is that the Jefferson acquisition really hurt Utah long-term, in part because they had to give two decent mid first-rounders that would have helped with the eventual rebuild and in part because integrating Jefferson required a not-subtle shift in philosophies that may have exacerbated the Sloan-DWill tension and hastened the end of an era… But that’s probably its own topic for another time).

Jefferson was certainly a horrible move

Eleven winning seasons out of 13 is a pretty good indication that you know how to assemble a basketball team.

you have a star you should win. Not that impressive

The fairest criticism of KOC, I think, is that he was slow to recognize the opportunity to step into a full rebuild post-DWill. The fact that the Jazz really had one foot in the competitive mindset and one foot in rebuilding for those last couple of KOC seasons made it harder to truly start the reset. That probably cost the 2011-2013 Jazz some valuable opportunities, and might have slowed the development of guys like Hayward and Favors.

tank!!!!!!!!!

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Sarah Todd: Quin Snyder says it’s not out of the realm of possibility that Rudy Gobert and Tony Bradley play together. – via Twitter NBASarah

Good to hear. Bradley was playing with Willie Reed with the Stars and was playing on the perimeter. He can shoot which we've yet to see unleashed with the Jazz yet. Defensively would be the question. I'd think Rudy would have to play away from the basket with Bradley as the rim protector which would leave Rudy as the deadliest help defender in the league. They need more size. Be interesting to see if Brantley or Morgan or anyone else gets some run now with Bojan out. It's basically a new season and training camp so minutes should be up for grabs

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Made a run with Bradley/Gobert starting the 2nd half. Probably the best they looked all night. Bradley missed on a couple of corner 3's badly but he can hit it. Gobert made a nice pass to Bradley for a dunk. Defense would be the bigger question but they should be able to play together at times. They need more size anyway they can get it

8 man rotation in the first half

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In fact, according to executives from two other teams, Thad Young, not LaVine, is the player considered most readily available. That’s largely based on Young’s displeasure with his role and usage last season, his team-friendly deal that carries only a partial guarantee in 2021-22 and his dependability and professionalism. – via K.C. Johnson @ NBC Sports

this could make sense though it doesn't really work in the trade machine right now. That might change in the off season? Need a starting 4! I think the Jazz know based on Bradley starting the 2nd half. Beed to play Brantley and Morgan with Rudy and see what happens

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https://www.yahoo.com/sports/yahoo-s...112903688.html

How much their partnership has to do with Utah’s underachievement this season is less clear, as Mitchell and Gobert respectively continued to perform at elite levels offensively and defensively throughout the season. Without them, the Jazz never would have been in line for a home playoff seed when the season stopped. Of greater concern was the performance and availability of Mike Conley, who cost the Jazz three straight first-round picks and a pair of potential rotational players in Jae Crowder and Kyle Korver.

if Mitchell was elite defensively or offensively throughout the season they might be the team to beat

If the Jazz have any chance of still making some playoff noise in the absence of Bogdanovic, it is with Conley assuming a greater offensive burden. His track record is evidence of his capability. Ingles will share some responsibility, but Conley as an upgrade over Ricky Rubio is the biggest difference between this Jazz team and the one that was run out of the gym by the Houston Rockets in last year’s first round.

and Favors isn't spotting up from the corner and Jae isn't taking 8 3's a night...

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https://www.deseret.com/sports/2020/...oronavirus-nba

But that’s exactly what an extension is — a prediction that a player will have value in future years. And that’s why from a team perspective, a young player like Mitchell is a better bet than Gobert.

betting on potential over a guy that has proven he can carry a team?

Let’s say, though, that the Jazz offer Gobert the supermax and sign Mitchell to a max extension, and down the line they run into a situation where they have to pay a luxury tax in order to build around the two stars.

you know they aren't paying tax no matter how much they say they will

The Jazz’s first order of business this offseason will likely be to get rid of Davis’ contract via trade. In doing so, they’ll want to make it so that whatever they bring back in salary is on a non-guaranteed contract that they can waive so it doesn’t count against the cap and they can open up that $5 million that Davis is currently occupying. The Jazz will probably let Mudiay walk if he wants anything more than a minimum contract, and they’ll deal with Brantley and Wright-Foreman in pretty quick fashion by either waiving or signing them to new two-way deals.

good luck trading Davis for non guaranteed deals! Don't think it's that simple with Mudiay. They probably can't afford him because they are limited in what they can offer but if Clarkson goes I'd want to keep Mudiay. Doubt Brantley is back as a two way. He might be in the rotation. They've yet to have a guy as a two way for 2 years straight so I doubt Wright Forman is back unless it's on the regular roster

The first, and most valuable exception to teams above the cap, is the non-taxpayer mid-level exception. Currently expected to be set at around $9.75 million next season, teams above the cap can use up to that amount on free agents so long as after the exception is used they do not go over the apron.

who can you get for that to start at the 4? Either that or trade Conley or Bojan if you can

The starting unit is not the issue with the Jazz. Once Bogdanovic returns from injury and the Jazz have a full season to really go for it, with Conley having more time to gel with everyone, it’s the bench that needs to be beefed up. Keeping Clarkson is the first step there, and getting some more athletic bodies and firepower could do the trick to keep the Jazz in the upper echelon of the Western Conference.

Need a starting 4 and better d. I think they may be better without Bojan. He's a scorer/shooter not much else. Conley and Mitchell together isn't ideal either. Clarkson wasn't an ideal fit but he seems to be playing more within the system now that they've had a camp with him

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Rudy was great in the last game and it was good to see the rookies pull out the win against veteran NBA players. Need to give Brantley and Morgan some run with Rudy and the top guys. They need more size starting at the 4!

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https://saltcityhoops.com/sc7-competitive-sans-bogey/

One way the Jazz will cope with the Bojan Bogdanovic injury is by pairing Royce O’Neale with Joe Ingles more often — and that’s a good thing. So far this season, that duo has the best Net Rating of any Jazz player pair with at least 500 minutes together. They also have the best defensive rating at 103.92. That last stat isn’t a fluke, either; O’Neale-Ingles also had the best DRtg of any high-minute player combo last season, at 97.0 in 673 shared minutes. Those two are both long, tough, and understand the Jazz’s schemes extremely well. Deploying them together will be a big key for Snyder

Be better if one of them was coming off the bench and they had a real NBA caliber starting PF

Someone will have to step up for the Jazz not to have serious problems at the back of their rotation. Almost anybody they face in the playoffs is bound to have at least a couple of guys coming off their bench who have played major roles for playoff teams in the past: guys like Dennis Schroder, Austin Rivers, Eric Gordon, Lou Williams, Moe Harkless and more.

imagine that. Contenders with vets instead of rookies. What a novel idea!

Mitchell is second, with nine. Not surpring, since he’s the Jazz’s co-MVP.

he's not co MVP

Bogey is right behind with eight. The Jazz will miss him in Orlando.

I think they may be better without him. Better D and will still be able to space the floor

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https://saltcityhoops.com/big-offsea...in-the-bubble/

The Jazz only have a couple unrestricted free agents this fall to worry about: Jordan Clarkson and Emmanuel Mudiay. Both of these guys will play a bigger role during the upcoming Restart and postseason due to the injury to Bojan Bogdanović. Rayjon Tucker and Juwan Morgan have partially guaranteed deals for next season, and the Jazz will have the ability to convert their two-way players, Jarrell Brantley and Justin Wright-Foreman, into restricted free agents. Brantley and Morgan might see some time in the bubble, because without Bogdanovic the Jazz get really small really quick.

I think Morgan and Brantley should have gotten a look but it looks like Bradley is their first option to play bigger

Last year the Jazz traded the beloved Derrick Favors to the Pelicans to clear cap space to sign Bogdanovic. This coming offseason Favors will be a free agent and The Athletics’ Tony Jones (who is close with Favors) reported on his podcast Game Notes that a reunion is possible. “I will say that there’s some interest there, I would say, both ways,” Jones said. Who wouldn’t want to see Favors back in a Jazz uniform? The Jazz would have to use their mid-level exception since they don’t have the cap space to sign him outright.

doesn't make much sense to me. Need a 4 that can spread the floor and Bradley is the backup 5

Last season’s mid-level was worth around $9 million but as of now it’s anybody’s guess as to how much it will be worth next season. If it’s much lower than this, signing Favors back will become more difficult and unlikely. The other aspect to consider before signing Favors is that the Jazz already have a young developing backup center behind Rudy Gobert. Tony Bradley has been the talk of this midseason mini training camp in Orlando. If he shows well during the playoff run, the Jazz may want to use their mid-level on another position, like adding some size at the power forward spot behind Bogdanovic.

Need a starting 4

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Reports out of the Disney Bubble are that Conley looks much more comfortable and should have a huge impact on this team’s playoff run. If Conley struggles then the question will arise again whether the Jazz should try to trade him. This could be tough because of the unknown offseason and the size of his contract. One thing to remember is during the 2021 summer, it will be the offseason of Giannis Antetokounmpo’s free agency. This is when Conley’s contract comes off the books and many teams who are targeting Antekokounmpo will need to clear a lot of cap space in order to sign him. Having a large expiring contract like Conley’s could be quite appealing. So if the Jazz feel they don’t have a chance at Antetokounmpo and Conley still isn’t fitting in well, trying to turn him into something else would be a wise move.

I think they should look at dealing Conley because he's not the ideal fit next to Mitchell and Bojan because he doesn't do much besides shoot and score. Get a starting 4, maybe another wing and pg(if they can't keep Mudiay). The rest would be gravy

Since the Jazz don’t have much cap space to spend this offseason, they will have to look for smaller contracts. Without Bogdanovic, they Jazz will start 6-foot-4 Royce O’Neale at power forward. The Jazz could use more depth, size and skill at that position. A few names to watch in the bubble are Dario Saric, a playmaking four, who hasn’t been the same player since his trade away from Philadelphia (who can blame him since his stops were in Minnesota and Phoenix?). Sacramento’s Harry Giles could be a good option as a combo power forward/center. Miami’s Derrick Jones Jr. has had a surprise season for them. A return of Jae Crowder or Marvin Williams could make some sense for the Jazz. Lastly, a low risk/high reward guy is Memphis’ Josh Jackson, the former high lottery pick of the Suns. He’s been a borderline bust so far but once he was called up from the G-League, he was making a difference for the Grizzlies.

Giles doesn't shoot the 3. Is he better than Bradley, Morgan or Brantley? Jones doesn't shoot the 3 well. Crowder isn't a starting 4. Marvin might make more sense now than he did before but I wasn't a fan then. Jackson hasn't shot the 3 well and is a headcase. Not a guy I see them interested in. Looks like Saric and Marvin out of those guys. Give me Saric assuming you don't get a 4 in a trade

The Jazz would be more than happy to give him the regular max deal (up to 30 percent of the cap) but would Gobert’s camp be on board with this during these unprecedented times?

Ideally you pay him more than other teams can pay him and everyone is happy. If he's smart he will go where they are all in and don't just say they are with 6 rookies

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https://saltcityhoops.com/constraint...in-the-bubble/

Hayward’s departure and the resulting identity crisis were a constraint. Yet head coach Quin Snyder and the Utah Jazz stunned everyone. They picked up a wide-eyed rookie replacement from the Nuggets draft factory, took on a new identity, and found a way to win more playoff games than the previous year. Without the constraint of Hayward’s departure, the ball would not have been in the hands of Donovan Mitchell so frequently that early in his career, which means his development would have been stunted. Losing the Jazz’s biggest asset in a decade actually worked to their benefit.

No mention of the 3rd most important man in Jazz history.