I'm going to try and watch every Bulls playoff game from '90 to '98

[Smoke117]

Based on that info, a dumb person (no offense) would conclude that Pippen is the better offensive player

A smart person would figure that's impossible and figure there's a sensible explanation

Obviously, it's easier to go from 102 to 103 ortg, than 113 to 114

The difference between a 102 offense and 108 is nothing compared to the difference between 112 (Gasol's Grizzlies) and 115 (magic, curry, MJ's best offenses)

Of course nobody would say Pippen was the better offensive player, but regardless of numbers he always raised the play of his teammates on that end. He had that rare ability to make others around him better.

[Roundball_Rock]

Of course nobody would say Pippen was the better offensive player, but regardless of numbers he always raised the play of his teammates on that end. He had that rare ability to make others around him better.

Which MJ himself said when he was comparing Pippen to Kemp.

Pippen did the same thing in Portland. Portland's W-L crashed without him (going from top 5 in the NBA to around 20th) for the same reason: the offense didn't operate nearly as efficiently as with Pippen at the controls and the teams missed his leadership and defensive ability.

Look at the W-L record of his teams with him and without him.

1988-1989 Bulls: 4-5 without him (44%), 43-30 with him (59%)
Over 82 games: on pace for 36 wins without him, 48 wins with him
Impact: +12 wins

1993-94 Bulls: 4-6 without him (40%), 51-21 with him (71%)
Over 82 games: on pace for 33 wins without him, 58 wins (#1 seed) with him
Impact: +25

1997-98 Bulls: 26-12 without him (68%), 36-8 with him (82%)
Over 82 games: on pace for 56 wins without him (#3 seed), 67 wins (best record in the league) with him
Impact: +11

56 wins would have meant that game 7 of the ECF, which the Bulls squeaked by in, would have been played in Indiana and not Chicago...

2000-01 Portland: 15-7 without him (68%), 35-25 with him (58%)
Over 82 games: 56 wins without him (tied with LA for #2 in the West), 48 wins with him (#8 seed)
Impact: -8

2001-02 Portland: 10-12 without him (45%), 39-21 with him (65%)
Over 82 games: 37 wins without him (#10 in the West), 53 wins with him (#5 in the West)
Impact: +16

2002-03 Portland: 12-13 without him (48%), 38-19 with him (67%)
Over 82 games: 39 wins without him (#11 in the West), 55 wins with him (#4 in the West)
Impact: +13

The Portland stuff was when the top 4-5 teams were all in the West so that is the context of "#4 in the West."

[3ball]

Of course nobody would say Pippen was the better offensive player, but regardless of numbers he always raised the play of his teammates on that end. He had that rare ability to make others around him better.

So did Draymond

So did Boris Diaw

So did Steve Smith

So did Bosh

So your argument isn't strong - the more you stray from arguments that you normally use for other guys - you lose

who cares if Pippen improved some guys by a point or 2 - everyone does that, or a lot of guys do - its a weak argument and shows how bare the cupboard of arguments is for Pippen..

[Smoke117]

So did Draymond

So did Boris Diaw

So did Steve Smith

So did Bosh

So your argument isn't strong - the more you stray from arguments that you normally use for other guys - you lose

who cares if Pippen improved some guys by a point or 2 - everyone does that, or a lot of guys do - its a weak argument and shows how bare the cupboard of arguments is for Pippen..

Steve Smith? Bosh? What the ****? Those two guys never made teammates better. Draymond pretty much needs a good team around him as we've seen this year. He was insignificant as you can be. As far as Diaw goes...who cares? Pippen is so much better than him in every way that bringing him up is just stupid.

[ELITEpower23]

Here it is (the answer is efficiency increased as Pippen guided an elite offense as Pippen ball is winning, team ball):

In 1997-98 Scottie played only 9 games before the all-star break. Let's look at the stats of the Bulls' top five scorers other than Pippen before and after the all-star break.

Toni Kukoc: 12.6 ppg on 45% shooting before the ASG, 14.4 on 46.4% after the ASG

Luc Longley: 11.1 ppg on 44.4% before the ASG, 12.8 ppg on 50% after the ASG

Ron Harper: 9.6 on 42.9% before the ASG, 8.8 on 46% after the ASG

Steve Kerr: 7.1 on 41.1% before the ASG, 8.0 on 50.7% after the ASG

And...dare I do it????

Michael Jordan: 28.9 on 45.0% before the ASG, 28.5 on 48.9% after the ASG

Gee, maybe this was all just a string of coincidences? Let's try one more, Bill Wennington. 3.3 ppg on 41.4% before the ASG, 3.7 on 45.9% after the ASG.

WOW. I think we need to shut ISH down for an hour. One moment of silence for this. R.I.P.

[3ball]

Steve Smith? Bosh? What the ****? Those two guys never made teammates better. Draymond pretty much needs a good team around him as we've seen this year. He was insignificant as you can be. As far as Diaw goes...who cares? Pippen is so much better than him in every way that bringing him up is just stupid.

There's tons of 16/6/5 "glue" guys in NBA history

Only one of them gets overrated and put in the top 50

[Smoke117]

There's tons of 16/6/5 "glue" guys in NBA history

Only one of them gets overrated and put in the top 50

lol So were going to define a guy by his early and on his last legs career. Why don't you post Pippen's numbers with the bulls 90 to 98 instead? I guess they'd be too high, huh? Let's include him coming up and then battered to shit 33-37 and say that's what he did for the Bulls. Again, you're just pathetic. I'm almost convinced you actually hate Jordan as you've brought more ill will to that prick than anyone ever could with your nonsense. Also, a 16/6/5 guy while being one of the greatest defensive players of all time isn't a glue guy but a star. Impact goes beyond the box score. I never thought I'd have to tell that to a Jordan stan. Yeah, Jordan put up big numbers, but he was a guy who always got respect for things he did beyond the box score. It's pathetic the way you want to diminish his teammates and raise him up purely on that. The funniest thing about your nonsense is even Jordan would call you a moron.

[Reggie43]

Would love to do something like this for the 90s Pacers, maybe try to watch one playoff run but unfortunately they dont have every series/games on youtube. Was actually searching for a game in the Knicks/Pacers series in 2000 wherein Mark Jackson unveiled his cross sign celebration but I couldnt find it. It was game 5 I think.

[aceman]

Here it is (the answer is efficiency increased as Pippen guided an elite offense as Pippen ball is winning, team ball):

In 1997-98 Scottie played only 9 games before the all-star break. Let's look at the stats of the Bulls' top five scorers other than Pippen before and after the all-star break.

Toni Kukoc: 12.6 ppg on 45% shooting before the ASG, 14.4 on 46.4% after the ASG

Luc Longley: 11.1 ppg on 44.4% before the ASG, 12.8 ppg on 50% after the ASG

Ron Harper: 9.6 on 42.9% before the ASG, 8.8 on 46% after the ASG

Steve Kerr: 7.1 on 41.1% before the ASG, 8.0 on 50.7% after the ASG

And...dare I do it????

Michael Jordan: 28.9 on 45.0% before the ASG, 28.5 on 48.9% after the ASG

Gee, maybe this was all just a string of coincidences? Let's try one more, Bill Wennington. 3.3 ppg on 41.4% before the ASG, 3.7 on 45.9% after the ASG.

Great post. Even last dance conceded team played better with Scottie running show. Stats back this up

[Roundball_Rock]

Great post. Even last dance conceded team played better with Scottie running show. Stats back this up

Yup, and so did Phil Jackson and teammates. The teammates in particular explain why, that Pippen looked to keep everyone involved, went out of his way to work the offense to get the ball to a player who was cold or hadn't gotten a look in a while (versus stat padding by shooting himself all the time like many other superstars). None of this shows up on the stat sheet but it improves team performance and generates wins. at Pippen being compared to Diaw, Steve Smith.

MJ stans love to make it all about winning or all about offense--until the inconvenient facts show up.

Why don't you post Pippen's numbers with the bulls 90 to 98 instead?

He knows those numbers=prime Hill's numbers, except Pippen actually played defense.

[86Celtics]

Yup, and so did Phil Jackson and teammates. The teammates in particular explain why, that Pippen looked to keep everyone involved, went out of his way to work the offense to get the ball to a player who was cold or hadn't gotten a look in a while (versus stat padding by shooting himself all the time like many other superstars). None of this shows up on the stat sheet but it improves team performance and generates wins. at Pippen being compared to Diaw, Steve Smith.

MJ stans love to make it all about winning or all about offense--until the inconvenient facts show up.



He knows those numbers=prime Hill's numbers, except Pippen actually played defense.

The statpadder who shot all the time happens to average more assists than Pippen but don't let that tiny fact get in the way.

If somebody who has no idea about basketball were to read this bs, he would ask himself why the Bulls brought Jordan back in the first place? Because according to you, he is a statpadder whose teammates play better without him. Krause must have been such a fool and Reinsdorf an even bigger one considering that he was still paying him while retired.

[Roundball_Rock]

The statpadder who shot all the time happens to average more assists than Pippen but don't let that tiny fact get in the way.

No need to get insecure as a "non-MJ" fan. Who mentioned MJ?

(versus stat padding by shooting himself all the time like many other superstars)

You know the "s" after "superstar" means multiple players, right?

[86Celtics]

No need to get insecure as a "non-MJ" fan. Who mentioned MJ?



You know the "s" after "superstar" means multiple players, right?

This is the best you can come up with? No advanced stats this time?

[Roundball_Rock]

Good faith posters know the type of player I was referring to. Carmelo, by way of example since there is a thread about him, is one. Iverson another. Zach Lavine (MJ stans wouldn't get that since they stopped watching Chicago in 1998).

[Carbine]

Game 3 vs Knicks

Another very scrappy game. The Knicks really gave this one away I think, they were at one point 9/20 FTs in a tight game - that's about 5 points under the expected value. Big deal.

The Bulls TEAM defense was great in this one. Horace made a couple big time rotations, one of which was a block at the rim into an easy fast break lay up on the other end. I mentioned earlier in this thread how bad the spacing in the triangle is compared to what we see in todays NBA. I can see why it has been phased out of the NBA.

MJ was awful to finish this game BTW. I believe he may have been 1-7 with a missed free throw to finish this one, with an offensive foul thrown in there. Overall he had quite a solid game once again though, but he was pretty bad to "close out" this one.


It was 35 -22 in free throw attempts for Chicago as well, but the way the Knicks play defense all those free throws were deserved.