Jordan vs Lebron All-NBA Playoff Opponent Comparison

[GimmeThat]

law of scarcity and units

interesting idea, the only suggestion I would make is the scoring system
I think it should be 1st team = 3, 2nd team = 1.5, and 3rd team = 1

say you're the top 15 players out of the 30 teams. 15/30 = 0.5 justifying the numeric differential between none 3rd team members and 3 team members at 1 and 0
as you're the top 10 players out of the 30 teams, 10/30 = 0.3333, which equates to 0.5/0.3333 = 1.5
and the top 5 players out of the 30 teams, 5/30 = 0.1666, which equates to 0.5/0.166666 = 3

this is again, part of another series of examining FMVP = 1, ring = 1, and MVP = 1

[light]

Problem. You're very lucky if you're facing Hardaway (1st) instead of Curry (3rd), for example.

Durant (1st) should be worth a hell of a lot more than Price (1st).

So maybe these should be weighted differently.

[ELITEpower23]

OP, what about the All-NBA teammates LeBron and Jordan played with?


Shouldn’t you also be comparing their all-nba teammates against their competition

LeBron had 4 All-NBA teammates in 17 seasons, how many did Jordan have?


How many All-NBA teammates did LeBron have on average per playoff run compared to Jordan? Can you run that analysis?

They did not think it all the way thru


92: Pippen (2nd team)
93: Pippen (3rd team)
94: Pippen (1st team)
95: Pippen (1st team)
96: Pippen (1st team)
97: Pippen (2nd team)
98: Pippen (3rd team)

7x

Plus all defense is huge, I think LeBron had 2 players ever make all defense, meanwhile Michael J had:
91: Pippen (2nd team)
92: Pippen (1st team)
93: Pippen (1st team) and Grant (2nd team)
94: Pippen (1st team) and Grant (2nd team
95: Pippen (1st team)
96: Pippen (1st team) and Rodman (1st team)
97: Pippen (1st team)
98: Pippen (1st team)

11x more, (we can exclude 94 since MJ was on a lunch break)

So that's

6x All NBA
9x All Defensive
15 total selections

LeBron has how many teammates like this? 8 in his whole career? Maybe less?

[theman93]

Problem. You're very lucky if you're facing Hardaway (1st) instead of Curry (3rd), for example.

Durant (1st) should be worth a hell of a lot more than Price (1st).

So maybe these should be weighted differently.

I'd say it balances out fairly well. Durant should be worth more then Price as 1st Teamers, but you could also say Ewing/Shaq/Payton should be worth more than Wallace/DeRozan as 2nd Teamers. Or that Worthy should be worth more than Lowry as 3rd Teamers.

[Roundball_Rock]

They did not think it all the way thru


92: Pippen (2nd team)
93: Pippen (3rd team)
94: Pippen (1st team)
95: Pippen (1st team)
96: Pippen (1st team)
97: Pippen (2nd team)
98: Pippen (3rd team)

7x

Plus all defense is huge, I think LeBron had 2 players ever make all defense, meanwhile Michael J had:
91: Pippen (2nd team)
92: Pippen (1st team)
93: Pippen (1st team) and Grant (2nd team)
94: Pippen (1st team) and Grant (2nd team
95: Pippen (1st team)
96: Pippen (1st team) and Rodman (1st team)
97: Pippen (1st team)
98: Pippen (1st team)

11x more, (we can exclude 94 since MJ was on a lunch break)

So that's

6x All NBA
9x All Defensive
15 total selections

LeBron has how many teammates like this? 8 in his whole career? Maybe less?

They did but they know if you show the info for the opposing teams Jordan's teams have the edge and LeBron's a deficit (in the finals). Hence concealing the other 50% of the equation. Here is the data for finals:

LeBron’s Teams

2007: 1 each (LeBron, Duncan)
2011: 2 versus 1 (LeBron, Wade and Dirk)
2012: 2 each (LeBron, Wade and Durant, Westbrook)
2013: 2 each (LeBron, Wade and Duncan, Parker)
2014: 1 each (LeBron and Parker)
2015: 2 each (LeBron, Irving and Curry, Thompson)
2016: 1 versus 3 (LeBron and Curry, Thompson, Green)
2017: 1 versus 3 (LeBron and Durant, Curry, Green)
2018: 1 versus 2 (LeBron and Durant, Curry)
Totals: 13 for LeBron’s teams, 17 for the opposition

This started out even but by his second stint in Cleveland it became lopsided in favor of the opposition. In total, LeBron’s teams had more all-NBA players once while the opposition had the edge three times. Since Irving played only four quarters of the 2015 finals, the opposition effectively had the advantage in each of LeBron’s last four finals. If you exclude Irving, LeBron's teams had a 12-17 deficit.

Jordan’s Teams

1991: 1 versus 2 (Jordan and Magic, Worthy)
1992: 2 versus 1 (Jordan, Pippen and Drexler)
1993: 2 versus 1 (Jordan, Pippen and Barkely)
1996: 2 each (Jordan, Pippen and Payton, Kemp)
1997: 2 each (Jordan, Pippen and Malone, Stockton)
1998: 2 versus 1 (Jordan, Pippen and Malone)
Totals: 11 for Jordan’s teams, 9 for the opposition

Jordan’s teams had the edge in three of his six finals and parity in two more. Only in 91’ did the opposing team have the edge and Worthy went down in Game 4 of the series.

Kareem’s Teams

1971: 2 versus 1 (Kareem, Oscar and G. Johnson)
1974: 1 each (Kareem and Havlicek)
1980: 1 each (Kareem and Erving)
1982: 1 each (Magic and Erving)
1983: 2 each (Kareem, Magic and Moses, Erving)
1984: 2 versus 1 (Kareem, Magic and Bird)
1985: 2 versus 1 (Kareem, Magic and Bird)
Total: 11 for Kareem’s teams, 8 for the opposition


Here it basically was even until 1984 (7-6), when Kareem was 37 years old by the playoffs.

What is striking is Kareem had only one all-NBA teammate in his career (Oscar in 71') until 82' (when he was 34 and past his prime).

[Bankaii]

What an elementary way of looking at things. This comletely negates the team aspect of basketball. The 2014 Spurs (1 All-NBA 2nd team) are miles better than the 2009 Magic (1 All-NBA 1st team).

What 2019 team is better...
CP3, Klay, Jimmy Butler, Ibaka, Gasol or Curry, JR Smith, Rudy Gay, Jeff Green, Jokic (0 All-NBA vs 2 All-NBA 1st)

[tpols]

Gotta compare teammate strength relative to that competition as well.

Wade, AD, Kyrie, Bosh and Love all made all NBA teams either before or with Lebron.

Im guessing Scottie Pippen is the only all NBA player MJ needed to win. and he won twice the amount with it.

Game over.

[ArbitraryWater]

People don't understand that talent was more spread in the 90's, playing Chuck on a shitty Sixers team isnt the same as playing Rondo or George on loaded teams.

The 90's had one superstar per team, and the Bulls were the exception.

Exel sheets wont change those details.

[LostCause]

What an elementary way of looking at things. This comletely negates the team aspect of basketball. The 2014 Spurs (1 All-NBA 2nd team) are miles better than the 2009 Magic (1 All-NBA 1st team).

This is true. It really comes down to how well the team plays, irrespective of who has 1 more superstar or whatever. The Bucks were the most dominant team in the league this year, they have 1 superstar. I didn’t see anyone saying how unfair it was the Lakers had 2.

LeBrons biggest blemish is losing to a Mavs team with 1 superstar while his team had 2

The Spurs you mentioned

If a team is clicking and playing well, that’s what matters. I posted some info earlier in the thread that goes beyond just looking at stars but focused on just how good the teams actually were in reality, and not just on paper

[ImKobe]

What an elementary way of looking at things. This comletely negates the team aspect of basketball. The 2014 Spurs (1 All-NBA 2nd team) are miles better than the 2009 Magic (1 All-NBA 1st team).

What 2019 team is better...
CP3, Klay, Jimmy Butler, Ibaka, Gasol or Curry, JR Smith, Rudy Gay, Jeff Green, Jokic (0 All-NBA vs 2 All-NBA 1st)

False. 2009 Magic stacks up pretty well. Peak Howard with versatile forwards on the perimeter in Hedo & Rashard, that roster was ahead of it's time. They didn't beat the Cavs by accident.

[theman93]

They did but they know if you show the info for the opposing teams Jordan's teams have the edge and LeBron's a deficit (in the finals). Hence concealing the other 50% of the equation. Here is the data for finals:

Nothing was concealed. When you only include the Finals it leaves out a great amount of data, which is precisely what you did. The topic of this particular study is Jordan and Lebron's All-NBA Opponents. The data presented here takes in to account every single All-NBA opponent from every single series for both players during the span of their respective careers. Not just the Finals and not just the East so the data cannot be skewed in either direction.

[Roundball_Rock]

How about all-NBA players on their respective teams? That is the other side of the equation. Using the finals and ECF (ECSF to represent 95') for time saving purposes (first options removed to compare "cast" strength):

1991 ECF: Dumars 3rd team
1991 finals: Worthy 3rd
1992 ECF: Pippen 2nd team vs. Daughtery 3rd
1992 Finals: Pippen 2nd team
1993 ECF: Pippen 3rd team
1993 Finals: Pippen 3rd team
1995 ECSF: Pippen 1st team vs. Penny 1st
1996 ECF: Pippen 1st team vs. Penny 1st
1996 Finals: Pippen 1st vs. Kemp 2nd
1997 ECF: Pippen 2nd
1997 Finals: Pippen 2nd vs. Stockton 3rd
1998 ECF: Pippen 3rd
1998 Finals: Pippen 3rd

That is a clear, consistent advantage after 1991.

[BigShotBob]

People don't understand that talent was more spread in the 90's, playing Chuck on a shitty Sixers team isnt the same as playing Rondo or George on loaded teams.

The 90's had one superstar per team, and the Bulls were the exception.

Exel sheets wont change those details.

PG13 was on a loaded team now?

[Duncan21formvp]

Jordan never lost with HCA, while Lebron lost 3 years in a row with it including to a career loser in Dwight Howard. Lebron also got swept when many considered him the best in the league. Jordan never got swept when he was considered the best in the league. Lebron was also down 3-2 every year of his career including 5 years in a row with HCA.