MJ is #1 in all rate of production stats (PPG, PER, BPM, WS/48, VORP seasons), so...

[Faksnima]

First post here...but I think Lebron is the smartest player in NBA history. He's literally carved his entire narrative and career path. He's manufactured arguably the most stacked teams over the last decade by teaming up with top two arguably top 3 players at their position in Miami and back again in Cleveland. He also stayed in the east his entire career where his greatest threats were an aging KG and Paul Pierce, a career underachiever in Dwight Howard, and one-trick pony in Arenas, a fringe super-star in PG13, and a career's greatness cut short in Rose. The competition in the east since Lebron's 2011 run has been subpar, to say the least. I've been saying for years that if we took a top 5 player and threw them in the east, they would dance to the Finals. What happened last year? Kawhi, in his first year with a decent Raptor squad, went to the Finals and had the fortune of playing a ripped apart Warriors team. Do we have a ton of doubt that if we replaced Bron with Kobe, Duncan, Dirk, or Durant that those east teams wouldn't cruise to the Finals every year? Here is the kicker - with any of those four dudes teamed up with Wade, Irving, Love, or Bosh, who the hell would call them an underdog? I keep hearing Bron was the underdog in these finals...when is the GOAT, teamed up with two other dudes at the top of the league in their position, considered an underdog? He is the only guy people have in their top 5 that is a loser in the Finals with arguably greater supporting casts. Stats aside (hell Russ averages a triple double and Harden is a scoring machine) the eye test says that LBJ is an all-time great player, but I really have a hard time considering him the GOAT when he won as many or fewer titles than his contemporaries with a supporting cast on par with any of them. Curry has 3, Wade has 3, Kobe and Duncan who overlapped him have 5 a piece, and KD and Kawhi are younger, on stacked teams and have 2 a piece. The "wealth" was spread around in the Lebron era - everyone had a little bit of the pie when he was at his peak, with his super teams. That never happened. The 00s had Kobe/Shaq and Duncan/Robinson/Parker, the 90s had Jordan, the 80s had Bird and Magic....The 10s? Curry/KD, Kawhi, Duncan, Kobe, and Wade all won on Lebron's watch and at better percentages. Sorry - can't be considered the GOAT and lose as much as he has on the biggest stage. Noone else gets a pass - neither should he.

[MrFonzworth]

First post here...but I think Lebron is the smartest player in NBA history. He's literally carved his entire narrative and career path. He's manufactured arguably the most stacked teams over the last decade by teaming up with top two arguably top 3 players at their position in Miami and back again in Cleveland. He also stayed in the east his entire career where his greatest threats were an aging KG and Paul Pierce, a career underachiever in Dwight Howard, and one-trick pony in Arenas, a fringe super-star in PG13, and a career's greatness cut short in Rose. The competition in the east since Lebron's 2011 run has been subpar, to say the least. I've been saying for years that if we took a top 5 player and threw them in the east, they would dance to the Finals. What happened last year? Kawhi, in his first year with a decent Raptor squad, went to the Finals and had the fortune of playing a ripped apart Warriors team. Do we have a ton of doubt that if we replaced Bron with Kobe, Duncan, Dirk, or Durant that those east teams wouldn't cruise to the Finals every year? Here is the kicker - with any of those four dudes teamed up with Wade, Irving, Love, or Bosh, who the hell would call them an underdog? I keep hearing Bron was the underdog in these finals...when is the GOAT, teamed up with two other dudes at the top of the league in their position, considered an underdog? He is the only guy people have in their top 5 that is a loser in the Finals with arguably greater supporting casts. Stats aside (hell Russ averages a triple double and Harden is a scoring machine) the eye test says that LBJ is an all-time great player, but I really have a hard time considering him the GOAT when he won as many or fewer titles than his contemporaries with a supporting cast on par with any of them. Curry has 3, Wade has 3, Kobe and Duncan who overlapped him have 5 a piece, and KD and Kawhi are younger, on stacked teams and have 2 a piece. The "wealth" was spread around in the Lebron era - everyone had a little bit of the pie when he was at his peak, with his super teams. That never happened. The 00s had Kobe/Shaq and Duncan/Robinson/Parker, the 90s had Jordan, the 80s had Bird and Magic....The 10s? Curry/KD, Kawhi, Duncan, Kobe, and Wade all won on Lebron's watch and at better percentages. Sorry - can't be considered the GOAT and lose as much as he has on the biggest stage. Noone else gets a pass - neither should he.

Welcome to ISH! Please space out your posts so we don't have any problems:)

Thanks!

[Rico2016]

First post here...but I think Lebron is the smartest player in NBA history. He's literally carved his entire narrative and career path. He's manufactured arguably the most stacked teams over the last decade by teaming up with top two arguably top 3 players at their position in Miami and back again in Cleveland. He also stayed in the east his entire career where his greatest threats were an aging KG and Paul Pierce, a career underachiever in Dwight Howard, and one-trick pony in Arenas, a fringe super-star in PG13, and a career's greatness cut short in Rose. The competition in the east since Lebron's 2011 run has been subpar, to say the least. I've been saying for years that if we took a top 5 player and threw them in the east, they would dance to the Finals. What happened last year? Kawhi, in his first year with a decent Raptor squad, went to the Finals and had the fortune of playing a ripped apart Warriors team. Do we have a ton of doubt that if we replaced Bron with Kobe, Duncan, Dirk, or Durant that those east teams wouldn't cruise to the Finals every year? Here is the kicker - with any of those four dudes teamed up with Wade, Irving, Love, or Bosh, who the hell would call them an underdog? I keep hearing Bron was the underdog in these finals...when is the GOAT, teamed up with two other dudes at the top of the league in their position, considered an underdog? He is the only guy people have in their top 5 that is a loser in the Finals with arguably greater supporting casts. Stats aside (hell Russ averages a triple double and Harden is a scoring machine) the eye test says that LBJ is an all-time great player, but I really have a hard time considering him the GOAT when he won as many or fewer titles than his contemporaries with a supporting cast on par with any of them. Curry has 3, Wade has 3, Kobe and Duncan who overlapped him have 5 a piece, and KD and Kawhi are younger, on stacked teams and have 2 a piece. The "wealth" was spread around in the Lebron era - everyone had a little bit of the pie when he was at his peak, with his super teams. That never happened. The 00s had Kobe/Shaq and Duncan/Robinson/Parker, the 90s had Jordan, the 80s had Bird and Magic....The 10s? Curry/KD, Kawhi, Duncan, Kobe, and Wade all won on Lebron's watch and at better percentages. Sorry - can't be considered the GOAT and lose as much as he has on the biggest stage. Noone else gets a pass - neither should he.

Dumb. If it was so easy why did only 1 guy do it.

2011: Finals
2012: Finals
2013: Finals
2014: Finals
2015: Finals
2016: Finals
2017: Finals
2018: Finals

MJ stans are only used to 3 Finals in a row and then a 2 year freshen up vacation.

[Faksnima]

I'm not an MJ stan, lol. I'm not even huge on MJ. I already made my point - all the best players were in the West....with the exception of Giannis and Rose (who was far too young), all the MVPS were in the West. Kawhi proved my point last year. He just waltzed to the finals. So he went to the Finals 8 times and lost 5, with super-teams. It wasn't Lebron and a solid team, it was manufactured super teams and he still went 3-5. Cmon man. In 10 years, Bryant made it 7 times and won 5. Duncan went there 6 times and won 5. Curry went there 5 times and won 3. No excuses.

[RRR3]

If LeBron was the smartest player ever he would have realized Kevin Love’s atrocious defense was costing him but he never did. People still think Love helped LeBron overall lol. Low IQ. Of course maybe LeBron did realize it and was too stubborn to do anything about it. He does have a great mind for basketball. Still, I’ve always thought Love cost LeBron competitively against the Warriors. Would have been MUCH better off with Paul Millsap.

[Roundball_Rock]

Jordan never lost with HCA

That cuts both ways. How often did MJ win without HCA? LeBron has done it several times, including in the NBA finals and ECF.

Jordan never got swept when he was considered the best in the league

Jordan was 2nd in MVP behind Magic, ahead of Bird. He had a similar case in 87' as LeBron circa 07'.

[LostCause]

I don't particularly care for PER or Gamescore but I notice some of the folks here absolutely love these metrics. Here are the respective Gamescores between Jordan and LeBron ranked

Top Regular Seasons by Game Score

1988 Jordan 28.8
1989 Jordan 28.6
1990 Jordan 27.6
1987 Jordan 27.4
1991 Jordan 26.2
2010 LeBron 25.6
1993 Jordan 25.5
1992 Jordan 24.4
2013 LeBron 24.4
2009 LeBron 24.3


Top Postseasons by Game Score

1986 Jordan 30.6
2009 LeBron 29.9
1990 Jordan 29.0
2018 LeBron 28.3
2017 LeBron 28.2
1989 Jordan 27.8
1991 Jordan 27.4
1988 Jordan 27.2
1987 Jordan 26.9
1993 Jordan 26.2
2010 LeBron 25.4
1992 Jordan 25.1