Durant vs. Kawhi: Greater player when it is all said and done?

[Roundball_Rock]

I'm surprised more people haven't pointed out how much the Spurs have fallen without Kawhi.

They got an all-star and key bench player back in return and with the "GOAT" coach as some believe those Spurs turned into a pretender real quick.

I mentioned it--they fell off less than the Thunder did without KD in year one. The Spurs faded over time but Aldridge is 34 now, DeRozan 30. They went 47-35, 48-34 the first two years without Kawhi (OKC went 47-35 with peak Westbrook and Oladipo without KD and then 48-34 the next year with PG added). They took the Nuggets to 7 games last year, who took Portland to 7. Eventually the wheels of a 30 year run have to come off but they didn't turn into a lottery team as soon as Kawhi left.

OKC after KD is identical to SA after Kawhi the first two years in win totals and playoff outcomes (the one difference is SA went to Game 7, OKC only Game 6). This is favorable to KD...OKC had Westbrook, PG, Oladipo; SA added only DeRozan. Yet similar results. OKC needed PG, Oladipo, and peak Westbrook to perform at a 47-48 win level while the Spurs were able to do it simply swapping Kawhi for DeRozan.

thats not even true though... they werent touching ECF's without derozan all those years. And he was shipped out.

That gets into comparing across years. Teams turnover each year and there is a lot of turnover when you get to comparing teams from 3-4 years ago. Siakam has emerged as probably a better player than DeRozan was, Lowry is still good, and you have others like FVV who have emerged. The 20' Raptors clearly have ECF potential.

[HBK_Kliq_2]

I mentioned it--they fell off less than the Thunder did without KD in year one. The Spurs faded over time but Aldridge is 34 now, DeRozan 30. They went 47-35, 48-34 the first two years without Kawhi (OKC went 47-35 with peak Westbrook and Oladipo without KD and then 48-34 the next year with PG added). They took the Nuggets to 7 games last year, who took Portland to 7. Eventually the wheels of a 30 year run have to come off but they didn't turn into a lottery team as soon as Kawhi left.

OKC after KD is identical to SA after Kawhi the first two years in win totals and playoff outcomes (the one difference is SA went to Game 7, OKC only Game 6). This is favorable to KD...OKC had Westbrook, PG, Oladipo; SA added only DeRozan. Yet similar results. OKC needed PG, Oladipo, and peak Westbrook to perform at a 47-48 win level while the Spurs were able to do it simply swapping Kawhi for DeRozan.



That gets into comparing across years. Teams turnover each year and there is a lot of turnover when you get to comparing teams from 3-4 years ago. Siakam has emerged as probably a better player than DeRozan was, Lowry is still good, and you have others like FVV who have emerged. The 20' Raptors clearly have ECF potential.

Spurs 2017 with Kawhi: 61 wins

Spurs 2018 without Kawhi: 47 wins

Thunder 2016 with Durant: 55 wins

Thunder 2017 without Durant: 47 wins

Spurs with a 14 win drop off to thunder's 8 win dropoff

[HBK_Kliq_2]

True, the other factor is how much do you value peak play? I suspect Kawhi will be T Mac, except with team success, in the sense of having 4-5 great seasons but poor longevity. Kawhi already was a role player for 4 seasons and if his knees are as bad as he and his people claim, he won't last long. So the case for Kawhi will turn on peak. Most people factor peak in but overall prime play and longevity are factors as well but if someone is all about peak then Kawhi will go higher.



Agreed.



I'm not sure this will happen and if it does it may not matter to future generations. LeBron got a lot of flack early on but a decade later it is forgotten. Durant's case was more extreme but I suspect 30-50 years now people will say he was on a stacked team but so was everyone else in the top 15 all-time (except maybe Hakeem) so who cares? That isn't how I read it (although I don't strictly ring count like many others in the first place) but I suspect that is where the historical verdict will come down.



Yeah and he has been on stacked teams his entire career. KD at least started out on bad teams. Brooklyn is an average team without him. Spurs, Raptors were both the 1 seed before him and the Clippers were a near 50 win team before him and added 2 superstars (a condition of him signing--not exactly the sign of a guy confident he can "carry" any team).



Agreed. Peak is close but overall length of prime and overall achievements will result in KD winning in a landslide. The real question with KD is if he can crack the tail end of the top 10 before it is all over.



It goes to team impact--the central claim made by people advocating for Kawhi. If he is the player his advocates say he is, how do you replace him with Anunoby and have identical results?

Identical results? Where is raptors ring at? Also why did raptors offense fall to 14th?

[SouBeachTalents]

Depending on health Kawhi should be in title contention for a while. Imo he definitely takes a hit for being able to miss 20 games a year and still be a top seed, a luxury very few superstars have had. Because of this he'll never win MVP & have lesser career totals, but he could realistically walk away with 3-4 titles/FMVP's, in addition to being a multiple DPOY.

Durant really compromised himself in these discussions. I know, if he stayed in OKC and never won a ring people would give him shit for that too, but the bitter irony of his decision is that he's now well known for his rings, but they carry literally the most negative connotation for any players titles that I've ever seen. Who knows, maybe in 10-20 years the narrative will change, but I think that's going to loom over his career for a while.

So imo, if Kawhi is able to remain a superstar for 5 more years, win another 1-2 titles/FMVP's, I don't see how he won't get the nod over Durant for most people

[HBK_Kliq_2]

Depending on health Kawhi should be in title contention for a while. Imo he definitely takes a hit for being able to miss 20 games a year and still be a top seed, a luxury very few superstars have had. Because of this he'll never win MVP & have lesser career totals, but he could realistically walk away with 3-4 titles/FMVP's, in addition to being a multiple DPOY.

Durant really compromised himself in these discussions. I know, if he stayed in OKC and never won a ring people would give him shit for that too, but the bitter irony of his decision is that he's now well known for his rings, but they carry literally the most negative connotation for any players titles that I've ever seen. Who knows, maybe in 10-20 years the narrative will change, but I think that's going to loom over his career for a while.

So imo, if Kawhi is able to remain a superstar for 5 more years, win another 1-2 titles/FMVP's, I don't see how he won't get the nod over Durant for most people

2020 Kawhi if he plays the last 8 games he will be at about 82% of the season. Anchoring a top 3 offense and top 5 defense

2017 - 2nd in MVP

2016 - Clear cut best player on 67 win teams

Kawhi has had 3 regular seasons when he would win MVP in a lot of different era's. The problem is Westbrook's triple double season, Curry/Giannis 70+ win seasons were so historic that Kawhi got snubbed.

Every season of Kawhi's prime (2016-present) was MVP level besides in Canada when he coasted defensively until playoffs cause it's a 1 year rental anyway. Three MVP level regular seasons already in 16, 17, 20

[Roundball_Rock]

Identical results?

Spurs without Kawhi in 18': 47 wins, first round loss
Spurs without Kawhi in 19': 48 wins, first round loss

Thunder without KD in 18': 47 wins, first round loss
Thunder without KD in 19': 48 wins, first round loss

This is favorable to KD since OKC had peak Westbrook and got Oladipo and PG. SA got only DeRozan when Kawhi left.

2020 Kawhi if he plays the last 8 games he will be at about 82% of the season.

You know he won't play all 8 (over/under should be 6). This is sad: 82% is a high end scenario. No other superstar has ever done this but Kawhi needs to recharge his batteries every couple games. He is 28. What happens when he ages? Does he take half the season off at 32?

Every season of Kawhi's prime (2016-present) was MVP level

You can't be MVP when you take 20 games off. Besides, we are comparing 4 elite years with a decade of dominance.

[light]

Kawhi has a similar problem as Curry - similar but different. No MVPs. Except for the fact that league MVPs are harder to win than Finals MVPs.

Guys like Tony Parker, Igoudala, Billups, Cedric Maxwell, Jo Jo White, Dennis Johnson can win Finals MVPs but they could never win league MVP, for example.

To win Finals MVP all you have to do is play well for 3 games and beat out only a handful of other guys in the series, but to win league MVP you have to play well for months and beat out everybody in the association.

So Kawhi has to get his act together and show us that he can win the hardest award there is to win - a league MVP (or two) - if he wants a seat at the table of true greatness.

[HBK_Kliq_2]

Spurs without Kawhi in 18': 47 wins, first round loss
Spurs without Kawhi in 19': 48 wins, first round loss

Thunder without KD in 18': 47 wins, first round loss
Thunder without KD in 19': 48 wins, first round loss

This is favorable to KD since OKC had peak Westbrook and got Oladipo and PG. SA got only DeRozan when Kawhi left.





You know he won't play all 8 (over/under should be 6). This is sad: 82% is a high end scenario. No other superstar has ever done this but Kawhi needs to recharge his batteries every couple games. He is 28. What happens when he ages? Does he take half the season off at 32?



You can't be MVP when you take 20 games off. Besides, we are comparing 4 elite years with a decade of dominance.

Westbrook carried that thunder team in 2017 by himself, the next four players in top minutes were all negative BPM. They had no right being only 8 games worse without Durant. 1 man team that Westbrook carried by himself to just -8 less wins, that's a knock on Durant. Spurs had more respectable role players and a GOAT level head coach.

By age 32, I'm expecting Kawhi to have at least 4-5 finals MVPS so we will worry about it when the time comes.

[Roundball_Rock]

Guys like Tony Parker, Igoudala, Billups, Cedric Maxwell, Jo Jo White, Dennis Johnson can win Finals MVPs but they could never win league MVP, for example.

To win Finals MVP all you have to do is play well for 3 games and beat out only a handful of other guys in the series, but to win league MVP you have to play well for months and beat out everybody in the association.

So Kawhi has to get his act together and show us that he can win the hardest award there is to win - a league MVP (or two) - if he wants a seat at the table of true greatness.

Good points. Who is the highest all-time guy with zero MVP's? I think it would be West and he usually is top 15 but not top 10 on 90% of lists. Plus he was losing MVP's in an era where Russell, Wilt, Kareem, Oscar were winning them. Kawhi is losing them in an era where Harden, Westbrook, Curry are winning.

Westbrook carried that thunder team in 2017 by himself, the next four players in top minutes were all negative BPM.

Yeah, and even with that they still fell off more than the Spurs did.

They had no right being only 8 games worse without Durant.

That is because they went 3-7 without Durant. With KD they had a 59 win pace so the decline is from that 59 win pace to 47 wins.

By age 32, I'm expecting Kawhi to have at least 4-5 finals MVPS so we will worry about it when the time comes.

Why so confident? First, it requires being on the champion. Second, it is possible PG or even Williams win FMVP even if the Clippers win.

[HBK_Kliq_2]

Good points. Who is the highest all-time guy with zero MVP's? I think it would be West and he usually is top 15 but not top 10 on 90% of lists. Plus he was losing MVP's in an era where Russell, Wilt, Kareem, Oscar were winning them. Kawhi is losing them in an era where Harden, Westbrook, Curry are winning.



Yeah, and even with that they still fell off more than the Spurs did.



That is because they went 3-7 without Durant. With KD they had a 59 win pace so the decline is from that 59 win pace to 47 wins.



Why so confident? First, it requires being on the champion. Second, it is possible PG or even Williams win FMVP even if the Clippers win.

3-7 without Durant? That's Durant's fault for missing games. Tell me clippers win pace when Kawhi plays and compare it to their wins the previous season.

Westbrook flooded with garbage was a top 10 SRS team and Durant couldn't even take them to the finals in 2016 despite being up 3-1.

[imdaman99]

KD for now but Kawhi gets past him with another ring, which I think he is closer to getting than KD is.

[Kgisbigticket21]

Durant because of mvp

[bobopenguin]

durant cos he wasnt restricted by load management.

[HBK_Kliq_2]

Kevin Durant at 27 years old vs Warriors: 30 points, 8 rebounds, 2.9 assist, 54% TS, 106 offensive rating, 20.1 GmSc

Kawhi Leonard at 27 years old vs Warriors: 29 points, 10 rebounds, 4.2 assists, 61% TS, 122 offensive rating, 23.9 GmSc

Major win by Kawhi

[HBK_Kliq_2]

durant cos he wasnt restricted by load management.

Luka has only played 3 more games then Kawhi this year. I guess you are going to ignore Luka's great year as well.