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Embiid > Jokic
Re: Give me the best and worst player on each of these short lists please.
Originally Posted by HBK_Kliq_2
Paul or Nash have never won anything, so it comes down too who you view as the better player. Steve Nash is a defensive liability to an extreme level, that's my main problem with him. Teams consistently lit up Nash's team in conference finals:
Spurs offensive rating in West finals 2005: 118
Mavs offensive rating in West finals 2006: 114
Lakers offensive rating in West finals 2010: 124
An offense average of 118.6! That's goat level offense in a span of three different years. His only argument is 2007 when his team got suspended but he could of took that series to 7 at least.
But Nash wasn't guarding Duncan, Manu, Dirk, Kobe etc, so I don't know why you pin the blame on him for his teams defensive woes. Hell, the opposing PG's in those series didn't even play that well
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Boom Baby!
Re: Give me the best and worst player on each of these short lists please.
Nash being the poster boy for rule change induced greatness plus being a defensive liability has something to do with him being picked worst of the group.
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I don't get picked last at the park anymore
Re: Give me the best and worst player on each of these short lists please.
Best/Worst
Durant/Nash
Leonard/Vince
Malone/Thomas
Kyrie/Dumars
Curry/Kidd
Miller/Manu
Terry/Barbosa
Magic/Duncan
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We Stay Winning
Re: Give me the best and worst player on each of these short lists please.
Originally Posted by Shogon
Eh, my only real problem is... are we talking about peak play or overall career? Anyways, I just shot from the hip...
Kg - Best
Chris Paul
David Robinson
Durant
Dirk
Nash - Worst
Tmac
Pierce - Worst
Vince Carter
Grant Hill
Paul George
Leonard - Best
Giannis - Best
Karl Malone
James Harden
Isiah Thomas - Worst
Doctor J
****Trolls delight****
Kyrie - Worst
Pau Gasol
Pippen - Best
Dumars
Klay
****Trolls Delight****
Jason Kidd
Steph Curry - Best
Gary Payton
Wade
Clyde Drexler - Worst
Lillard
Ray Allen - Best
Reggie Miller
Mitch Richmond - Worst
Manu
Ben Gordon
Lou Williams
Barbosa
Jason Terry - Worst
John Starks
Jamal Crawford - Best
Magic Johnson
Tim Duncan
Shaq - Best
Kobe - Worst
Hakeem
Jesus H. Christ. You got nearly every single one right.
My only minor beef is KG or KD, but I could see it either way.
Oh, and you put Barbosa over Terry.
98% accuracy damn good tho!
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Euros rule NBA, UMAD?
Re: Give me the best and worst player on each of these short lists please.
Originally Posted by Reggie43
Nash being the poster boy for rule change induced greatness plus being a defensive liability has something to do with him being picked worst of the group.
I mean, there is a ring of truth to what the rules did for Nash, but in the big picture they opened up the game for his already present skillset to max out. Which, really, can be said for all perimeter players the last 15 years. Its not like he alone was the beneficiary of those changes. Everyone was competing in the same environment and some scaled better than others but there needed to be something there to scale in the first place.
Look at Iverson. He jumps from like a 31ppg 40ish% scorer to 33ppg 45% in 06, at 31 when he was already on the back nine of his prime and visibly slower than he was in his MVP heyday. Kobe,Dirk, Pierce, Arenas, Lebron, alot of guys did their career high scoring numbers around that time. Boosts in PPG and/or boosts in field goal efficiency. That's not a coincidence.
Last edited by Phoenix; 07-03-2020 at 04:26 AM.
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NBA All-star
Re: Give me the best and worst player on each of these short lists please.
nash gets underrated everywhere and i'm a paul guy. yes rule changes blah blah but moving into a good system with dantoni and getting healthy mattered a lot too. Yes ik nelson was a pretty good option to coach Nash to his strengths too but he was a bit obsessed with forwards nash's final year and the mavs played a lot more iso heavy. even pre 2005 that how many pg's all time had his combo of passing+shooting ability? His defense is worse than paul's for sure but he's a magic lvl playmaker.
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Boom Baby!
Re: Give me the best and worst player on each of these short lists please.
Originally Posted by Phoenix
I mean, there is a ring of truth to what the rules did for Nash, but in the big picture they opened up the game for his already present skillset to max out. Which, really, can be said for all perimeter players the last 15 years. Its not like he alone was the beneficiary of those changes. Everyone was competing in the same environment and some scaled better than others but there needed to be something there to scale in the first place.
Look at Iverson. He jumps from like a 31ppg 40ish% scorer to 33ppg 45% in 06, at 31 when he was already on the back nine of his prime and visibly slower than he was in his MVP heyday. Kobe,Dirk, Pierce, Arenas, Lebron, alot of guys did their career high scoring numbers around that time. Boosts in PPG and/or boosts in field goal efficiency. That's not a coincidence.
Yeah I admit that type of perception of Nash is unfair and lots of players benefitted from the rule change obviously.
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Euros rule NBA, UMAD?
Re: Give me the best and worst player on each of these short lists please.
Originally Posted by NBAGOAT
nash gets underrated everywhere and i'm a paul guy. yes rule changes blah blah but moving into a good system with dantoni and getting healthy mattered a lot too. Yes ik nelson was a pretty good option to coach Nash to his strengths too but he was a bit obsessed with forwards nash's final year and the mavs played a lot more iso heavy. even pre 2005 that how many pg's all time had his combo of passing+shooting ability? His defense is worse than paul's for sure but he's a magic lvl playmaker.
The closest I can think of is Mark Price but I dont think Price was quite the passer( though he was very good in that dept as well).
Last edited by Phoenix; 07-03-2020 at 05:03 AM.
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Re: Give me the best and worst player on each of these short lists please.
Dirk
Durant
Leonard
T-Mac
Giannis
Isiah Thomas
Pippen
Kyrie
Steph Curry
Gary Payton
Manu
Mitch Richmond
Jason Terry
Jamal Crawford
Magic Johnson
Hakeem
Had doubts about first one, who's worse Nash or Durant, trolls delight, who's best Pau Gasol or Pippen and last one, Magic or Duncan.
Other than that pretty obvious answers.
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07-03-2020, 09:28 AM
#100
Consensus Top 20-30 AT
Re: Give me the best and worst player on each of these short lists please.
The closest I can think of is Mark Price but I dont think Price was quite the passer( though he was very good in that dept as well).
Yeah Price probably is the closest thing to Nash before Nash. Great player--underrated because he didn't have longevity. Price missed 66 games in 91'--his team went from contenders to the lottery--but because he was scoring 18 PPG and not 28 PPG he is forgotten.
The D'Antoni effect is overstated:
Here is the Nash impact on teammate TS % (using 3 year averages where possible):
Amare w/out Nash 2003-2004: 53.3%
Amare with Nash 2008-2010: 63.1% (62.8% from 2005-2010)
Amare w/out Nash 2011-2013: 56.7%
Marion with Nash 2005-2007: 58.0%
Marion w/out Nash 2009-2011: 53.7%
Marion 2010 in Phoenix: 59.4%
Marion 2010 in Miami: 50.3%
J. Johnson w/out Nash 2002-2003: 47.5%
J. Johnson with Nash 2004-2005: 52.2%
J. Johnson w/out Nash 2006-2008: 54.2%
Bell w/out Nash 2003-2005: 51.2%
Bell with Nash 2006-2008: 57.0%
Bell w/out Nash 2010-2012: 54.6%
(2009 56.9% in PHX, 54.1% in CHA)
Barbosa w/out Nash 2004: 55.3%
Barbosa with Nash 2005-2010: 58.1%
Barbosa w/out Nash 2011-2013: 52.4%
Diaw w/out Nash 2004-2005: 48.1%
Diaw with Nash 2005-2008: 55.1%
Diaw w/out Nash 2010-2012: 54.5%
(60.0% in PHX, 55.8% in CHA in 09')
Shaq w/out Nash 2005-2007: 58.1% (57.9% in 06' and 07')
Shaq with Nash 2009: 62.3%
Shaq w/out Nash 2011-2012: 59.5%
(60.5% in PHX, 57.7% in MIA in 08')
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07-25-2020, 01:16 PM
#101
Administrator
Re: Give me the best and worst player on each of these short lists please.
This is a good grouping of players.
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