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  1. #91
    Embiid > Jokic SouBeachTalents's Avatar
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    Default Re: Give me the best and worst player on each of these short lists please.

    Quote Originally Posted by HBK_Kliq_2 View Post
    Paul or Nash have never won anything, so it comes down too who you view as the better player. Steve Nash is a defensive liability to an extreme level, that's my main problem with him. Teams consistently lit up Nash's team in conference finals:

    Spurs offensive rating in West finals 2005: 118

    Mavs offensive rating in West finals 2006: 114

    Lakers offensive rating in West finals 2010: 124

    An offense average of 118.6! That's goat level offense in a span of three different years. His only argument is 2007 when his team got suspended but he could of took that series to 7 at least.
    But Nash wasn't guarding Duncan, Manu, Dirk, Kobe etc, so I don't know why you pin the blame on him for his teams defensive woes. Hell, the opposing PG's in those series didn't even play that well

  2. #92
    Boom Baby! Reggie43's Avatar
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    Default Re: Give me the best and worst player on each of these short lists please.

    Nash being the poster boy for rule change induced greatness plus being a defensive liability has something to do with him being picked worst of the group.

  3. #93
    I don't get picked last at the park anymore
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    Default Re: Give me the best and worst player on each of these short lists please.

    Best/Worst

    Durant/Nash
    Leonard/Vince
    Malone/Thomas
    Kyrie/Dumars
    Curry/Kidd
    Miller/Manu
    Terry/Barbosa
    Magic/Duncan

  4. #94
    We Stay Winning Shooter's Avatar
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    Default Re: Give me the best and worst player on each of these short lists please.

    Quote Originally Posted by Shogon View Post
    Eh, my only real problem is... are we talking about peak play or overall career? Anyways, I just shot from the hip...

    Kg - Best
    Chris Paul
    David Robinson
    Durant
    Dirk
    Nash - Worst







    Tmac
    Pierce - Worst
    Vince Carter
    Grant Hill
    Paul George
    Leonard - Best





    Giannis - Best
    Karl Malone
    James Harden
    Isiah Thomas - Worst
    Doctor J





    ****Trolls delight****
    Kyrie - Worst
    Pau Gasol
    Pippen - Best
    Dumars
    Klay
    ****Trolls Delight****






    Jason Kidd
    Steph Curry - Best
    Gary Payton
    Wade
    Clyde Drexler - Worst










    Lillard
    Ray Allen - Best
    Reggie Miller
    Mitch Richmond - Worst
    Manu






    Ben Gordon
    Lou Williams
    Barbosa
    Jason Terry - Worst
    John Starks
    Jamal Crawford - Best



    Magic Johnson
    Tim Duncan
    Shaq - Best
    Kobe - Worst
    Hakeem
    Jesus H. Christ. You got nearly every single one right.

    My only minor beef is KG or KD, but I could see it either way.

    Oh, and you put Barbosa over Terry.

    98% accuracy damn good tho!

  5. #95
    Euros rule NBA, UMAD? Phoenix's Avatar
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    Default Re: Give me the best and worst player on each of these short lists please.

    Quote Originally Posted by Reggie43 View Post
    Nash being the poster boy for rule change induced greatness plus being a defensive liability has something to do with him being picked worst of the group.
    I mean, there is a ring of truth to what the rules did for Nash, but in the big picture they opened up the game for his already present skillset to max out. Which, really, can be said for all perimeter players the last 15 years. Its not like he alone was the beneficiary of those changes. Everyone was competing in the same environment and some scaled better than others but there needed to be something there to scale in the first place.

    Look at Iverson. He jumps from like a 31ppg 40ish% scorer to 33ppg 45% in 06, at 31 when he was already on the back nine of his prime and visibly slower than he was in his MVP heyday. Kobe,Dirk, Pierce, Arenas, Lebron, alot of guys did their career high scoring numbers around that time. Boosts in PPG and/or boosts in field goal efficiency. That's not a coincidence.
    Last edited by Phoenix; 07-03-2020 at 04:26 AM.

  6. #96
    NBA All-star NBAGOAT's Avatar
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    Default Re: Give me the best and worst player on each of these short lists please.

    nash gets underrated everywhere and i'm a paul guy. yes rule changes blah blah but moving into a good system with dantoni and getting healthy mattered a lot too. Yes ik nelson was a pretty good option to coach Nash to his strengths too but he was a bit obsessed with forwards nash's final year and the mavs played a lot more iso heavy. even pre 2005 that how many pg's all time had his combo of passing+shooting ability? His defense is worse than paul's for sure but he's a magic lvl playmaker.

  7. #97
    Boom Baby! Reggie43's Avatar
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    Default Re: Give me the best and worst player on each of these short lists please.

    Quote Originally Posted by Phoenix View Post
    I mean, there is a ring of truth to what the rules did for Nash, but in the big picture they opened up the game for his already present skillset to max out. Which, really, can be said for all perimeter players the last 15 years. Its not like he alone was the beneficiary of those changes. Everyone was competing in the same environment and some scaled better than others but there needed to be something there to scale in the first place.

    Look at Iverson. He jumps from like a 31ppg 40ish% scorer to 33ppg 45% in 06, at 31 when he was already on the back nine of his prime and visibly slower than he was in his MVP heyday. Kobe,Dirk, Pierce, Arenas, Lebron, alot of guys did their career high scoring numbers around that time. Boosts in PPG and/or boosts in field goal efficiency. That's not a coincidence.
    Yeah I admit that type of perception of Nash is unfair and lots of players benefitted from the rule change obviously.

  8. #98
    Euros rule NBA, UMAD? Phoenix's Avatar
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    Default Re: Give me the best and worst player on each of these short lists please.

    Quote Originally Posted by NBAGOAT View Post
    nash gets underrated everywhere and i'm a paul guy. yes rule changes blah blah but moving into a good system with dantoni and getting healthy mattered a lot too. Yes ik nelson was a pretty good option to coach Nash to his strengths too but he was a bit obsessed with forwards nash's final year and the mavs played a lot more iso heavy. even pre 2005 that how many pg's all time had his combo of passing+shooting ability? His defense is worse than paul's for sure but he's a magic lvl playmaker.
    The closest I can think of is Mark Price but I dont think Price was quite the passer( though he was very good in that dept as well).
    Last edited by Phoenix; 07-03-2020 at 05:03 AM.

  9. #99
    High School Starter
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    Default Re: Give me the best and worst player on each of these short lists please.

    Dirk
    Durant

    Leonard
    T-Mac

    Giannis
    Isiah Thomas

    Pippen
    Kyrie

    Steph Curry
    Gary Payton

    Manu
    Mitch Richmond

    Jason Terry
    Jamal Crawford

    Magic Johnson
    Hakeem


    Had doubts about first one, who's worse Nash or Durant, trolls delight, who's best Pau Gasol or Pippen and last one, Magic or Duncan.
    Other than that pretty obvious answers.

  10. #100
    Consensus Top 20-30 AT Roundball_Rock's Avatar
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    Default Re: Give me the best and worst player on each of these short lists please.

    The closest I can think of is Mark Price but I dont think Price was quite the passer( though he was very good in that dept as well).
    Yeah Price probably is the closest thing to Nash before Nash. Great player--underrated because he didn't have longevity. Price missed 66 games in 91'--his team went from contenders to the lottery--but because he was scoring 18 PPG and not 28 PPG he is forgotten.

    The D'Antoni effect is overstated:



    Here is the Nash impact on teammate TS % (using 3 year averages where possible):

    Amare w/out Nash 2003-2004: 53.3%
    Amare with Nash 2008-2010: 63.1% (62.8% from 2005-2010)
    Amare w/out Nash 2011-2013: 56.7%

    Marion with Nash 2005-2007: 58.0%
    Marion w/out Nash 2009-2011: 53.7%
    Marion 2010 in Phoenix: 59.4%
    Marion 2010 in Miami: 50.3%

    J. Johnson w/out Nash 2002-2003: 47.5%
    J. Johnson with Nash 2004-2005: 52.2%
    J. Johnson w/out Nash 2006-2008: 54.2%

    Bell w/out Nash 2003-2005: 51.2%
    Bell with Nash 2006-2008: 57.0%
    Bell w/out Nash 2010-2012: 54.6%
    (2009 56.9% in PHX, 54.1% in CHA)

    Barbosa w/out Nash 2004: 55.3%
    Barbosa with Nash 2005-2010: 58.1%
    Barbosa w/out Nash 2011-2013: 52.4%

    Diaw w/out Nash 2004-2005: 48.1%
    Diaw with Nash 2005-2008: 55.1%
    Diaw w/out Nash 2010-2012: 54.5%
    (60.0% in PHX, 55.8% in CHA in 09')

    Shaq w/out Nash 2005-2007: 58.1% (57.9% in 06' and 07')
    Shaq with Nash 2009: 62.3%
    Shaq w/out Nash 2011-2012: 59.5%
    (60.5% in PHX, 57.7% in MIA in 08')

  11. #101
    Administrator insidehoops's Avatar
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    Default Re: Give me the best and worst player on each of these short lists please.

    This is a good grouping of players.

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