LeBron vs Bird vs Magic - Whose PRIME was better?

[r0drig0lac]

LeBron
Bird
Magic

this

[Whoah10115]

It's Magic and Bird. LeBron is top 5 at this point, but other two are better players. I don't care.

Also, Bird was hurt in 88/89 season, so how does it go from 81-89?

[Roundball_Rock]

Dirk's '07 wasn't any worse than Lebron's '11, or Kobe's '04, or Magic's '84, or Kareem's whole 70's decade, or Shaq's record amount of sweeps, or Wilts abominable record vs his foe... etc.

Dirk 07' 20/11/3 on 51% TS (38% FG)--down from 25/9/3 on 61% in the regular season

Dirk was outscored by Baron Davis, Stephen Jackson, Josh Howard, and Jason Richardson came within 0.2 of outscoring Dirk too.

Kareem in the 70's 30/16/4 56% TS, versus 29/15/5 58% in the RS
Shaq (94'-99') 27/11/3 57% TS, versus 28/12/3 on 58% in the RS

This guy is comparing Dirk's 07' to these?

[tpols]

Dirk lost to a team of borderline all stars that were injured all year and came back just in the nick of time for the playoffs.

Their coach? The same guy that coached and raised Dirk in the NBA.

Dirk wasn't exploitable like Shaq. He wasn't a malcontent negative intangible team force like Kareem.

He was mother****ing Dirk Nowitzki. Exceptional fit. Pure clutch.

[SouBeachTalents]

Dirk lost to a team of borderline all stars that were injured all year and came back just in the nick of time for the playoffs.

Their coach? The same guy that coached and raised Dirk in the NBA.

Dirk wasn't exploitable like Shaq. He wasn't a malcontent negative intangible team force like Kareem.

He was mother****ing Dirk Nowitzki. Exceptional fit. Pure clutch.

And then promptly lost to Utah in 5 the very next round

[Carbine]

I've been around long enough I remember a whack of threads titled "Dirk is a massive choker" and "Is Dirk or Romo the bigger choker in Dallas"

Things along those lines were posted routinely back in 07-09

[goozeman]

All 3 are great players but I have to disagree with "easily Magic." Magic's playoff runs were in the weaker western conference and the assist is 100% dependent upon the other player scoring the basket. So all of Magic's assists were because of Magic and not the skill level of his LA teammates? Magic's true shooting in the playoffs also benefits from Magic for many years, not being the focal point of the opposing team's defense and getting lots of open looks and double teams thrown at Kareem = something that cannot be said about Bird and Lebron. When LA faced the East in the finals they won 5 times and lost 4 times and of the 51 games played, LA won 24 and lost 27 = only a 47% win %. The Magic "could have been a 30 ppg scorer" is a weak argument because he never came close to that scoring load and I think it would have been very costly to himself and his teammates. Let's look at what happened in 83 vs Sixers. Magic scored 19.0 ppg on 40.3% shooting and had 6 turnovers per game. And in 91 vs Bulls Magic scored 18.6 ppg on 43.1% shooting and had 4.4 turnovers per game. Both of these Finals show Magic (like any other player) as capable of playing poorly and being slowed down. For me, looking at the defensive talents, I have to put Lebron slightly over Bird and Bird over Magic, Magic's 3 point shooting also hurts in his comparison with these other two players.

All fair points, but I say "easily" because Magic was forced to retire at age 31 still near his peak. His playoff assist number as it stands now will probably never be broken. Baseball has a lot of mystique with its records, and Magic's 2,346 assists is one basketball number that is DiMaggio-like in terms of cache. Now add another five healthy years to Magic's numbers, and suddenly we are in the Secretariat at the Belmont Stakes realm of disbelief of what is possible. Magic legitimately could have had 3,500 playoff assists and almost doubled up the next closest player. This is why I say Magic's play transcended the game. His numbers don't make sense when you try to put them in an ordinary context of even the very greatest players even we concede Magic played with great teammates. To me Magic is the greatest basketball genius to ever step on the court. Maybe not the greatest player all told, but still... the greatest player with a wink, if you know what I'm saying. Also, who knows... Add a few more healthy season and suddenly we might be talking six or even seven championships...

[insidious301]

It's Magic and Bird. LeBron is top 5 at this point, but other two are better players. I don't care.

Interesting. Are Magic and Bird interchangable or is one specifically better? Also, why is LeBron not in that conversation?

Also, Bird was hurt in 88/89 season, so how does it go from 81-89?

What I included were the games before that injury. Like I told a poster on the last page, there are different opinions on a players prime. That is when they began and finished. To me, the best of Bird ended in the 80s. If you think he extended his prime post injury, and into the 1990 season? That's fine. He had a great bouneback year. It doesn't change much in the OP though.

[insidious301]

All fair points, but I say "easily" because Magic was forced to retire at age 31 still near his peak. His playoff assist number as it stands now will probably never be broken. Baseball has a lot of mystique with its records, and Magic's 2,346 assists is one basketball number that is DiMaggio-like in terms of cache. Now add another five healthy years to Magic's numbers, and suddenly we are in the Secretariat at the Belmont Stakes realm of disbelief of what is possible. Magic legitimately could have had 3,500 playoff assists and almost doubled up the next closest player. This is why I say Magic's play transcended the game. His numbers don't make sense when you try to put them in an ordinary context of even the very greatest players even we concede Magic played with great teammates. To me Magic is the greatest basketball genius to ever step on the court. Maybe not the greatest player all told, but still... the greatest player with a wink, if you know what I'm saying. Also, who knows... Add a few more healthy season and suddenly we might be talking six or even seven championships...

Another good post. Nuance like this is appreciated. I will conduct a tally when more people get a chance to comment.

[Whoah10115]

Interesting. Are Magic and Bird interchangable or is one specifically better? Also, why is LeBron not in that conversation?



What I included were the games before that injury. Like I told a poster on the last page, there are different opinions on a players prime. That is when they began and finished. To me, the best of Bird ended in the 80s. If you think he extended his prime post injury, and into the 1990 season? That's fine. He had a great bouneback year. It doesn't change much in the OP though.

That 89-90 season was a more seasoned player. Put up career averages, but unlike 2nd 3peat Jordan he didn't modify his game just to preserve himself, but because he had to. I do think you can start his prime in 80 or even 79.

LeBron is great, but it's difficult to rank this era. So much catering. Everything is treated as winning or nothing, and it plays throughout the season. It's just so awkward.

I take Magic just ahead, but maybe that's preference. For me they're top 3 ever.

[Lebron23]

LeBron James

[insidious301]

That 89-90 season was a more seasoned player. Put up career averages, but unlike 2nd 3peat Jordan he didn't modify his game just to preserve himself, but because he had to. I do think you can start his prime in 80 or even 79.

LeBron is great, but it's difficult to rank this era. So much catering. Everything is treated as winning or nothing, and it plays throughout the season. It's just so awkward.

I take Magic just ahead, but maybe that's preference. For me they're top 3 ever.

Fair enough. Ranking LeBron is tough. I got him in that tier with Magic and Bird in their primes. If you asked me to put one over the other though? I would just make another topic like this lol.

[Carbine]

Bird and Magic would tell you themselves LeBron was better. In fact I think they may have eluded to that many times over the last 10 years.

[insidious301]

Bird and Magic would tell you themselves LeBron was better. In fact I think they may have eluded to that many times over the last 10 years.

Do you have references? I've never heard them say that.

[Axe]

Dirk lost to a team of borderline all stars that were injured all year and came back just in the nick of time for the playoffs.

Their coach? The same guy that coached and raised Dirk in the NBA.

Dirk wasn't exploitable like Shaq. He wasn't a malcontent negative intangible team force like Kareem.

He was mother****ing Dirk Nowitzki. Exceptional fit. Pure clutch.

So you're telling us that don nelson became Dirk's Achilles heel during that series...