Here's some stats for a couple guys that once placed 3rd in MVP voting

[Roundball_Rock]

The issue is he is hardly alone. A lot of the premises in his posts are accepted now, even by people pushing back. For instance, "I know Pippen sucked on offense, but he was a great defender." This would count as a pro-Pippen post on ISH these days.

No one said Pippen sucked on offense in the 90's. His entire reputation was being good/great at everything, hence why he was considered the best all-around player at his peak. Yet the narrative on ISH is completely warped.

It is clear cut revisionism with 1-9ball, who didn't join ISH until 2014, the tip of the spear but hardly alone (no single poster could have that kind of impact...). The question is: should it simply be left unchallenged? It has gained traction over time, even with minimal pushback. When I started on ISH even MJ stans would say Pippen was top 40ish all-time, top 5 at his peak, great (but overrated to them), etc. Not so today.

I would be fine with a moratorium on Pippen posts on ISH. I signed up to talk basketball, not what happened 25 years ago all the time--but so long as people like 1-9ball, IMKobe and the other dozen plus tools are going to push BS, the natural tendency is to respond in some fashion. If that is "nutty", oh well.

Part of what MJ stans understand is they vastly outnumber Pippen fans. LeBron fans are temporarily Pippen allies but LeBron fans generally are too young to have watched in the 90's, know what happened and how players were perceived then, etc. So 20 people saying one thing is going to overwhelm 2 people in opposition.

[Smoke117]

The issue is he is hardly alone. A lot of the premises in his posts are accepted now, even by people pushing back. For instance, "I know Pippen sucked on offense, but he was a great defender." This would count as a pro-Pippen post on ISH these days.

No one said Pippen sucked on offense in the 90's. His entire reputation was being good/great at everything, hence why he was considered the best all-around player at his peak. Yet the narrative on ISH is completely warped.

It is clear cut revisionism with 1-9ball, who didn't join ISH until 2014, the tip of the spear but hardly alone (no single poster could have that kind of impact...). The question is: should it simply be left unchallenged? It has gained traction over time, even with minimal pushback. When I started on ISH even MJ stans would say Pippen was top 40ish all-time, top 5 at his peak, great (but overrated to them), etc. Not so today.

I would be fine with a moratorium on Pippen posts on ISH. I signed up to talk basketball, not what happened 25 years ago all the time--but so long as people like 1-9ball, IMKobe and the other dozen plus tools are going to push BS, the natural tendency is to respond in some fashion. If that is "nutty", oh well.

I'm convinced you are just as mad as he is now. Scottie is my favorite player of all time, but you been arguing with this fool for 6 months now! What the fuuuukkk? Arguing about the same goddamn shit for 6 months every day. You're both crazy as hell.

[Roundball_Rock]

In other words, Pippen fans should unilaterally disarm. The MJ stan response will be to stop the Pippen hate too, right? 3ball is a cop out--anyone can read any Pippen thread before 2014, which is when 1-9ball joined ISH.

Why be on a sports message forum where you can talk about any subject--except your favorite player?

I am not responding seriously to him. He is being mocked throughout the thread. 95% of my responses here are to other people, not 1-9ball. If, say, Shooter responds--that should be ignored too because it is loosely related to 1-9ball? The field should be completely vacated to Team MJ? If he is posting daily threads, people will go in them--like you just did.

(Not sure about the 6 months thing--I hadn't posted for years circa February 2020.)

[Roundball_Rock]

If you have a better approach to put forward, I'm all ears.

All I know is I didn't post for several years. I came back and saw MJ stans are not only pushing the Pippen hate like they did my entire previous time on ISH, they have become a lot more extreme as time goes by and the frequency is a lot greater. If it was just one poster or two or three it would be one thing but it's Team MJ practically whole hog, with a handful of exceptions like Kuniva and Phoenix.

[Vino24]

If you have a better approach to put forward, I'm all ears.

All I know is I didn't post for several years. I came back and saw MJ stans are not only pushing the Pippen hate like they did my entire previous time on ISH, they have become a lot more extreme as time goes by and the frequency is a lot greater. If it was just one poster or two or three it would be one thing but it's Team MJ practically whole hog, with a handful of exceptions like Kuniva and Phoenix.

3ball honestly Needs a long break. His arguments used to include links and some facts. Now he’s just a babbling brook without any work cited

[3ball]

People in the 90's absolutely said Pippen sucked on offense and just overall

Not just players, but everyday fans on the street would make fun of Pippen... It's hyperbole, but there's truth to it and many people said it... MANY people.. it is was a theme

He was a great "flow" points scorer, but bad at tough points or important points that required more than being in the right place at the right time

It's funny because pippen's 21 on 40% took the knicks 7 games.. this sheds light on things because obviously Jordan makes the Finals in place of Pippen and would do so with ANY ready-made system and roster of VETERANS

Bottom line - Pippen was often not that good, but the system, teamwork, experience and resulting victory covered it up.. for example, people have no idea that pippen was horrible in the 96' Finals or many other series - he was always COMPLETELY OVERLOOKED.. no one really considered whether his offense was good because no one was paying attention to him - only MJ's stat line was noticed.. he simply wasn't talked about, except to say "eh, he ain't that good"

[Roundball_Rock]

3ball honestly Needs a long break. His arguments used to include links and some facts. Now he’s just a babbling brook without any work cited

I started posting here in 2009. He started in 2014. Then I stopped posting for years. During that overlap he was just another MJ stan. He wasn't particularly annoying nor was he the guy setting the tone for the others. I can't speak to how or why he changed. Do you have any ideas?

What I can speak to is the MJ stans I posted with from 2009 through the mid 2010's are a lot more extreme, a lot more insecure, and a lot more angry at Pippen. I presume that is because LeBron has become such a big threat, much more than Kobe ever was. Somehow lashing out Pippen makes them feel better about MJ possibly losing GOAT status.

One MJ stan said Pippen was a top 5 guy for several years, compared Pippen favorably to Ewing and Drexler (he had Pippen better than one and equal to the other) back in the day. Now? This summer he thinks Pippen wasn't as good as Gasol. Same guy. Pippen retired. What changed to make Pippen become that much worse in the 2010's? I use him as a proxy for the group. You won't find hardly any MJ stan who would say Pippen was top 5 or better than those guys today.

[3ball]

3ball honestly Needs a long break. His arguments used to include links and some facts. Now he’s just a babbling brook without any work cited

.
The opponent's 2nd leading scorer in a series either outscored Pippen, or matched him with better efficiency in 14 of 36 series (40%), and 33% of series during the championship years


................................. PPG.. FG%.. TS.. ORTG

88' Pippen 1st Rd... 10.6.. 47.1.. 49.4.... 96
88' Harper 1st Rd... 17.6.. 47.6.. 50.7.. 100

88' Pippen. 2nd Rd..... 9.4.. 45.8.. 48.5.... 85
88' Dantley 2nd Rd... 18.6.. 50.0.. 58.9.. 117

89' Pippen 1st Rd... 15.0.. 39.7.. 51.0.. 102
89' Nance. 1st Rd... 19.4.. 55.1.. 58.4.. 117

89' Pippen' ECF..... 9.7.. 40.4.. 45.8.... 94
89' Aguirre ECF... 13.3.. 55.8.. 59.8.. 120

90' Pippen ECF..... 16.6.. 42.6.. 52.0.. 102
90' Thomas ECF... 17.6.. 39.6.. 51.5.. 108

92' Pippen 2nd Rd... 16.0.. 40.2.. 49.3.. 106
92' X-Man. 2nd Rd... 18.6.. 49.6.. 52.5.. 106

93' Pippen' 1st Rd... 15.3.. 42.2.. 45.3.. 100
93' K Willis 1st Rd... 16.7.. 45.7.. 58.9.. 117

94' Pippen 2nd Rd... 21.7.. 40.5.. 51.0.. 103
94' Ewing' 2nd Rd.... 22.9.. 53.0.. 58.1.. 113

95' S Pippen 1st Rd... 16.0.. 51.0.. 60.0.. 122 (3rd option behind kukoc)
95' Johnson' 1st Rd... 20.0.. 47.7.. 54.6.. 119

96' Pippen' 2nd Rd... 15.6.. 33.0.. 41.6.. 100
96' Oakley. 2nd Rd... 13.2.. 50.0.. 57.7.... 99

96' Pippen' ECF.. 18.5.. 45.3.. 50.8.. 120
96' Penny. ECF... 25.5.. 46.9.. 55.1.. 108

96' Pippen. Finals... 15.7.. 34.3.. 42.9.. 106
96' S Kemp Finals... 23.3.. 55.1.. 63.3.. 117

97' Pippen. 1st Rd'... 16.7.. 38.6.. 49.3.. 106
97' Howard 1st Rd... 18.7.. 45.3.. 58.6.. 123

98' Pippen. ECF... 16.6.. 39.2.. 46.3.. 102
98' R Smits ECF... 16.3.. 55.4.. 62.6.. 119

93' Pippen Finals.... 21.2.. 43.9.. 45.9.... 97
93' Majerle Finals... 17.2.. 42.0.. 58.7.. 128

97' S Pippen Finals... 20.0.. 3.5 apg.. 42.2.. 54.1.. 101.. 4 clutch pts
97' Stockton Finals... 15.0.. 8.8 apg.. 50.0.. 61.1.. 111.. 12 clutch pts



the 93' Finals, 97' Finals, 95' 2nd Round and 97' ECF weren't included in the final tally even though Pippen was outplayed in those series as well

[Smoke117]

If you have a better approach to put forward, I'm all ears.

All I know is I didn't post for several years. I came back and saw MJ stans are not only pushing the Pippen hate like they did my entire previous time on ISH, they have become a lot more extreme as time goes by and the frequency is a lot greater. If it was just one poster or two or three it would be one thing but it's Team MJ practically whole hog, with a handful of exceptions like Kuniva and Phoenix.

lol I've said for years now...if you just ignore him he'll go away. He wants attention. You fools want to engage in his nonsense, though. There really isn't a "better" approach as he's ****ing crazy. You can't have a logical debate with him so why even bother? The only times I ever engage with him anymore is when I'm shit faced.

[3ball]

lol I've said for years now...if you just ignore him he'll go away. He wants attention. You fools want to engage in his nonsense, though. There really isn't a "better" approach as he's ****ing crazy. You can't have a logical debate with him so why even bother? The only times I ever engage with him anymore is when I'm shit faced.

You know what's crazy?

How Paul George caught massive heat for playing poorly and there's tons of articles lamenting his play, but where were those articles for Pippen? he sat out the final possession - that's the only time he was ever knocked, despite playing like George did all the time

All the real stars have articles written about them when they play badly, except Pippen because he wasn't a real star despite is accolades - everyone knew deep down that he was carried by MJ, and built by MJ.. so when he was demolished in big series like the 96' Finals, 92' ECF, 98' ECF, or 89' ECF, no one said a word about it... Because it was no different than if Kukoc or Kerr played bad (non-stars... no one cares about them)