Here's some stats for a couple guys that once placed 3rd in MVP voting

[Roundball_Rock]

I don't remember Pippen ever being a -5BPM or negative in VORP though. Pippen was always a huge plus in those stats.

Yup--but remember, per MJ stains, we can't use stats (except PPG)--especially advanced stats (because they all show peak Pippen as a top 5 player). We can't use accolades--because they are "media awards." We can't use what coaches, GM's, and players thought either because, well, because. We can't use on/off (the Bulls offense struggled without Pippen--LA has a 128 oRTG with PG off in the playoffs ). We can't use team records with Pippen out. We simply have to take MJ stains' word for everything: Pippen sucked but somehow an era where a scrub was a top player was a great era.

The inconsistency should be obvious: if such a bad player was a top player in that era, that era must be trash. Voters have to vote for someone and they couldn't find one forward better than Pippen in multiple* years for all-NBA--with prime Malone, prime Barkley, prime Hill, prime Kemp in the league? These are the very guys (among forwards) MJ stains tout as evidence of MJ having great comp along with Worthy.

*For little 1-9ball/ImKobe, that means more than one.

[3ball]

Round Mound posted the stats many times

Pippen routinely ranked 16th, 19th, 14th, etc in all the advanced stats every year alongside Mike

That proves his all-nba awards are undeserved and the ring count inflated his value.. 1st or 2nd team = top 5 or 10 statistically, but Pippen was always ranking 15-25 range

Ultimately, he's lucky to play alongside the goat in a 2-star format (the goat will always win the most in a 2-star format)

And btw, it's the playoffs that really matter, and pippen's playoff stats are horrible and don't compare to anyone - he's the worst playoff performer ever among "star" players

[Roundball_Rock]

Not one forward in the entire NBA worth voting for ahead of a scrub in multiple seasons. That is damning. How are we to take such a weak era seriously? Of course "Jordan" is going to beat the Suns and Jazz all by himself when the #1 options on those teams are behind his team's #2 option in all-NBA a year apart from those finals trips.

[3ball]

Not one forward in the entire NBA worth voting for ahead of a scrub in multiple seasons. That is damning. How are we to take such a weak era seriously? Of course "Jordan" is going to beat the Suns and Jazz all by himself when the #1 options on those teams are behind his team's #2 option in all-NBA a year apart from those finals trips. That is like Ray Allen being ahead of Kobe in 2009.

Pippen was 1st team only 2 or 3 times, so every year there was a SF considered better

And he's simply the worst playoff performer ever - everyone was better in the playoffs

If Pippen is truly top 30, why isn't he top 30 in most advanced stats?.. he's 130 in PER

[AirBonner]

The thing is even with Pippen having an off game he would routinely shutdown the opposing teams best player with his defense which more than made up for it. Pippen no matter what brings something to the table. George otoh brings nothing

[SouBeachTalents]

Pippen was 1st team only 2 or 3 times, so every year there was a SF considered better

And he's simply the worst playoff performer ever - everyone was better in the playoffs

If Pippen is truly top 30, why isn't he top 30 in most advanced stats?.. he's 130 in PER

If LeBron truly isn't top 10, why is he top 5 in every advanced stat?.. he's 2nd in PER

[3ball]

The thing is even with Pippen having an off game he would routinely shutdown the opposing teams best player with his defense which more than made up for it. Pippen no matter what brings something to the table. George otoh brings nothing

Pippen never shut down anyone - it's a myth - everyone got their normal numbers on him... Every series.. look it up

And mj was always the primary defender on the opponent's top perimeter player, aka Magic, Drexler, Isiah, Payton, Miller... Otoh, Pippen only guarded Penny, who destroyed him

[3ball]

If LeBron truly isn't top 10, why is he top 5 in every advanced stat?.. he's 2nd in PER

Myself, Kenny Smith, and others have Lebron ranked 10 or 11, so that's close to his advanced stats rank

Otoh, top 30 is nowhere near where Pippen's advanced stats rank

If LeBron truly isn't top 10, why is he top 5 in every advanced stat?.. he's 2nd in PER

Games 3-5 of 96' Finals

Pippen... 11.7 on 27.5%



aka worse than PG13

[Round Mound]

Notice how Prime Pippen's stats where great without Jordan

A 2nd option that ranks this well in all of these categories without the 1st Option.

Pippen in 93-94:

- 3rd in Plus/Minus
- 4th in PER
- 5th In Defensive Plus/Minus
- 5th In Offensive Plus/Minus
- 5th In Value Over Replacement Player
- 7th in Defensive Win Shares
- 7th in Win Shares
- 7th In Defensive Rating
- 9th in Win Shares Per 48 Minutes
- 55 Wins (Two Less than the year prior with 1st Option Jordan)

In the 90's what other teams 2nd option could rank this well in advanced stats while playing without their 1st option?

[Lebron23]

Myself, Kenny Smith, and others have Lebron ranked 10 or 11, so that's close to his advanced stats rank

Otoh, top 30 is nowhere near where Pippen's advanced stats rank




Games 3-5 of 96' Finals

Pippen... 11.7 on 27.5%



aka worse than PG13

You are such a horrible poster. LeBron is 1b if he wins the nba championship this year against some quality oppositions in the playoffs.

[Roundball_Rock]

If LeBron truly isn't top 10, why is he top 5 in every advanced stat?.. he's 2nd in PER

1-9ball also doesn't understand all-NBA is on a F/G/C basis. For most of the 90's it was two PF's taking both first team F spots. When I say "leading vote getter" that means #1, first, not the second guy at forward. 1-9ball and IMKobe lack basic reading comprehension skills.

Note that Pippen being 1st team all-NBA three times is considered ho hum. Compare that to these guys:

Pippen 1st team all-NBA: 3x
Drexler/Miller/Payton/Richmond/Kemp/Johnson/Worthy 1st team all-NBA: 3x
Drexler/Miller/Richmond/Kemp/Johnson/Worthy 1st team all-NBA: 1x

So doing it 3x is chump change but all these other guys combined only did it 3x? Drexler, the first option on two finals teams. 1x. Miller, the darling of MJ stans and the "#1" on a Pacers contender. 0x (never even made a second team). Kemp, another MJ stan darling. 0x. Hell, even Ewing only did it once, another MJ stan favorite. Price, the #1 on the Cavs contender. 1x.

Damn, 1-9ball keeps showing how weak MJ's era was when a bum like Pippen could do it 3x but all these other "great" players couldn't! If Pippen would be Draymond or Iggy in today's league, what would these guys be?

Notice how Prime Pippen's stats where great without Jordan

Yup. Hmmm...I wonder why?

In the 90's what other teams 2nd option could rank this well in advanced stats while playing without their 1st option?

[MrFonzworth]

OP's mother is a slut whore.

Can confirm

[3ball]

Notice how Prime Pippen's stats where great without Jordan

A 2nd option that ranks this well in all of these categories without the 1st Option.

Pippen in 93-94:

- 3rd in Plus/Minus
- 4th in PER
- 5th In Defensive Plus/Minus
- 5th In Offensive Plus/Minus
- 5th In Value Over Replacement Player
- 7th in Defensive Win Shares
- 7th in Win Shares
- 7th In Defensive Rating
- 9th in Win Shares Per 48 Minutes
- 55 Wins (Two Less than the year prior with 1st Option Jordan)

In the 90's what other teams 2nd option could rank this well in advanced stats while playing without their 1st option?

DeMar DeRozan won 60 with the Raptors.. Marc Gasol won 55 with the Grizzlies and dpoy... It's nothing - Pippen is on the same level as these guys (Gasol, DeRozan)

So that's the point - tons of guys can match pippen's 94' regular season, while EVERYONE was better in the playoffs - Pippen was a bad playoff performer... you dare not post pippen's stats for the playoffs - the guy was horrible (the current Paul George level was standard for Pippen)

Ultimately, you're trying to use a one-off regular season to comment on pippen's entire career, when many guys have regular seasons like that.. And pippen's overall advanced stats rank over 100 all-time... Nowhere near top 30.. infact, his stats were barely top 20 (in the league) for nearly his entire career

[Roundball_Rock]

I agree Pippen sucks. Therefore, MJ's era sucked and we can't take those rangz and 5 MVP's seriously. As many MJ stains often note, Pippen=Draymond or Iggy in today's tough era of basketball. Today's rings have to be worth a lot more since 90's MVP candidates are 4th options in this era since there is so much more talent in this era than the weak 90's.

The question is how much of a "weak era tax" should we apply to MJ? Half credit for the 6 rangz?

[3ball]

I agree Pippen sucks. Therefore, MJ's era sucked and we can't take those rangz and 5 MVP's seriously. As many MJ stains often note, Pippen=Draymond or Iggy in today's tough era of basketball. Today's rings have to be worth a lot more since 90's MVP candidates are 4th options in this era since there is so much more talent in this era than the weak 90's.

The question is how much of a "weak era tax" should we apply to MJ? Half credit for the 6 rangz?

Pippen sucks = era sucks?

:

Is it kindergarten logic day or something??

MJ won 6 with Potty Pippen because the goat wins with anyone in a 2-star format.. Orlando Woolridge was just unlucky to play with MJ when many HOF's were required to win the conference (the no parity 80's/top heavy conferences)