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  1. #31
    Consensus Top 20-30 AT Roundball_Rock's Avatar
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    Default Re: Kyrie deserves an apology for the Celtics collapsing and about to lose 4 straight

    Quote Originally Posted by Gray GOAT View Post
    How come every team just performs better when Kyrie is no longer on it? Even the Nets, whose roster Kyrie deemed to weak (such leadership), has a better win ratio when Kyrie doesn't see the court.
    Quote Originally Posted by TheGoatest View Post
    2018 Celtics without Kyrie - Eastern Conference Finals, one game away from NBA Finals
    2019 Celtics with Kyrie - 2nd round exit, backdoor swept with Kyrie averaging 20.4 on 36%
    2020 Celtics without Kyrie - Eastern Conference Finals
    2020 Nets with Kyrie - 8-12
    2020 Nets without Kyrie - 27-25

    I hate Kyrie's guts, but I have to admit, that is one powerful resumé that clearly shows Kyrie makes the teams he is on better.
    The evidence speaks for itself. Even if the Celtics lose the series this is their PO performance in recent years:

    Celtics from 2017-2020

    2017: ECF
    2018: ECF
    2019: Lost in 5 in the second round
    2020: ECF

    What was different about that one outlier year?

  2. #32
    Bran Fam Member ImKobe's Avatar
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    Default Re: Kyrie deserves an apology for the Celtics collapsing and about to lose 4 straight

    Quote Originally Posted by Roundball_Rock View Post

    What was different about that one outlier year?
    They actually played a title contender in the '19 ECSF? That's not enough? I'm sure the '17 Wizards or the '18 Sixers or the '20 Raptors were as good as a 60-win team that had the #4 offense and #1 defense with the league MVP.

  3. #33
    Linja Status Whoah10115's Avatar
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    Default Re: Kyrie deserves an apology for the Celtics collapsing and about to lose 4 straight

    Quote Originally Posted by ImKobe View Post
    Kemba in the last 6 games is averaging 16 ppg on 38.2%FG/20% 3PT, Game 2 ECF was his first time in 6 games that he made more than one three . He's anemic in 4th quarters and kills them on the defensive end. He's a cancer.
    I mean, are you this stupid?

    Enough Kobe haters in here. You trying to make them look better? This is a stupid response. You sound sensitive and defensive, looking for any opportunity to defend something.

  4. #34
    Bran Fam Member ImKobe's Avatar
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    Default Re: Kyrie deserves an apology for the Celtics collapsing and about to lose 4 straight

    Quote Originally Posted by Whoah10115 View Post
    I mean, are you this stupid?

    Enough Kobe haters in here. You trying to make them look better? This is a stupid response. You sound sensitive and defensive, looking for any opportunity to defend something.
    I'm asking for some consistency here. If we shit on one player for a bad 4-game stretch, can we not do the same with the guy who's his replacement and who was supposed to be so much better? This is Kemba's first Playoffs since 2016 & he's been underwhelming with how much hype he got as Kyrie's replacement. Celtcs would have lost in the 2nd round, had Tatum not developed into a borderline superstar this season.

  5. #35
    The One CelticBaller's Avatar
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    Default Re: Kyrie deserves an apology for the Celtics collapsing and about to lose 4 straight

    By almost every metric the Celtics are a better team without Kyrie and the results show it.

    I can’t see how Kyrie has any fans were after the last two seasons

  6. #36
    The One CelticBaller's Avatar
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    Default Re: Kyrie deserves an apology for the Celtics collapsing and about to lose 4 straight

    Quote Originally Posted by ImKobe View Post
    They actually played a title contender in the '19 ECSF? That's not enough? I'm sure the '17 Wizards or the '18 Sixers or the '20 Raptors were as good as a 60-win team that had the #4 offense and #1 defense with the league MVP.
    Did you watch the ****ing games? Kyrie was the reason why we got bent by the bucks dumbass ��

  7. #37
    Consensus Top 20-30 AT Roundball_Rock's Avatar
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    Default Re: Kyrie deserves an apology for the Celtics collapsing and about to lose 4 straight

    Quote Originally Posted by CelticBaller View Post
    Did you watch the ****ing games? Kyrie was the reason why we got bent by the bucks dumbass ��


    3ball Junior I is pushing Kyrie for the same reason he pushes Davis and Wade.

  8. #38
    ISH Bingo card Phoenix's Avatar
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    Default Re: Kyrie deserves an apology for the Celtics collapsing and about to lose 4 straight

    Quote Originally Posted by ImKobe View Post
    SNIP
    The point in raising 2017 is to say different team makeups of the Celtics in the last 4 years have gotten further than the Kyrie led Celtics in 2019. And generally, by players that would be considered 'worse' than Kyrie as individual talents. It's as simple as that and why nobody owes him an apology. If the Celts had actually gotten past the Bucks last year led by Kyrie this would be a 'I told you so' discussion but even then, the Bucks didn't play the Celts this year and we don't for sure what the net result would be this time around.

    What we do know is this years Celtics team has a much better sense of identity and structure than last year's team trying to incorporate Kyrie as leader into mix as well as Hayward. Tatum was considered to be somewhat of a disappointment in 2019 relative to the expectations people had for him coming off the 2018 playoffs. And oh look, with Kyrie out of the way the natural upward curve he was on returned to the degree of him making all-NBA third team this year. Now part of that could be that he's just a year older and more experienced, but another part is clearly Kyrie didn't do much for Tatum's development and clashed with the younger Celts who marked their territory after the 2018 Cinderella playoff run. Insert Kemba who fit in far more seamlessly which allowed the Tatum/Brown duo to blossom. I would control your hard-on on Miami getting to the finals just yet. Both games were won by 5 or less points and the Celts have so far played Miami closer than the Bucks did. Never mind the fact that we've had a few 1-3 comebacks already so unless Miami wins game 3, I wouldn't start printing out Heat 2020 conference champion hats and t-shirts yet.


    He's not the only reason for the Bucks loss, but you're the one arguing Kyrie is owed an apology. Actually I don't even know what you're arguing overall. Some misguided attempt to say if Kyrie was on the Celts now they wouldn't be down 0-2 to Miami? Some snipe at Kemba? Because you seem to have some weird smugness about the Heat being up 2-0, but I'm not sure where that ties in with Kyrie. Are you saying if Kyrie was on the Celts this year and playing now the Heat wouldn't be up 2-0? Kyrie was injured this year and didn't play in the bubble so it's neither here nor there. But I doubt guys like Tatum and Brown would have been as good this year if Kyrie was there still fighting over whose team it is, which was the obvious dynamic playing out. So again, I don't think Kyrie's presence on this team lifts them higher than they already are. He's a great individual talent but he's not a galvanizer, leader, or someone who makes guys around him better. Which is why I and just about everyone else here make the point that the Celtics have done better without him, both before he arrived and after. He's owed nothing. Dude hasn't even played in 2 of the last 3 playoffs with his team eligible, so we should be discussing his availability and reliability as much as what actually happens on-court.

    You speak to the (lack of) experience of the Sixers in this series as if Tatum and Brown were vets. Tatum was a rookie, Rozier had 2 years under his belt, Brown 1.The only 'experienced' Celt of consequence was Horford. And if you want to stick with the 'Bucks are a bad matchup' and that the Celts were lucky to avoid them this year, IF Kyrie was playing for Boston this year and IF they ended up playing the Bucks again, they'd lose for the same reason you're using above: bad matchups. So what are you arguing about again in Kyrie's defense? They lost 4-1 to the Bucks last year, I can't imagine the current Celtics doing any worse than that if they matched up again. And whose to say Kyrie in 18 gets them to the finals over the Cavs if they get that far? Kyrie would have made it personal because of the Lebron matchup and that unto itself could have derailed their chances. We simply don't know one way or the other.

    Except 20 games this year amounts to 28% of the season since they played 72 total. We're not talking a 5 game sample where the Nets went 2-3 with Kyrie or something like that. 20 games, and being 8-12 in those games, is more than enough of a sample size. There's a good chance they end up with an above .500 record if they didn't have Kyrie 'leading' them to 8-12 when he was on the floor. You're fixated on the argument that Kyrie makes teams 'worse' without presenting any evidence that he makes them better.
    Last edited by Phoenix; 09-18-2020 at 12:04 PM.

  9. #39
    ISH Bingo card Phoenix's Avatar
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    Default Re: Kyrie deserves an apology for the Celtics collapsing and about to lose 4 straight

    Quote Originally Posted by ImKobe View Post
    They won against the Raptors with Kemba playing like a bum in the last 2 games, they're lucky to even be in the ECF. You think Kyrie couldn't have given them 9.5 ppg in 47.8 mpg on 25.9%FG/15.4%3PT/60%FT like Kemba did in Games 6 & 7?
    Nets were lucky to be in the playoffs this year. Good thing Kyrie 'only' played in 20 games ( he won 8) to minimize the damage and allow the Nets to otherwise win enough games to get in.

    Quote Originally Posted by ImKobe View Post
    Well, how come he didn't do that on the Cavs then? Does one bad series erase all the good ones he's had? That's like the overreacting people are doing with Kawhi right now. One bad series & all the good ones all of a sudden didn't happen.
    He had good series on the Cavs when nothing was expected of him but being a scoring weapon alongside Lebron, which he's damn good at. It's when we talk about him leading a team and making a players around him better that things fall off the track. He's a great player. But you're arguing him to be something he's never proven in any situation where he's been the best player and/or expected to lead.

    Quote Originally Posted by ImKobe View Post
    I'm asking for some consistency here. If we shit on one player for a bad 4-game stretch, can we not do the same with the guy who's his replacement and who was supposed to be so much better? This is Kemba's first Playoffs since 2016 & he's been underwhelming with how much hype he got as Kyrie's replacement. Celtcs would have lost in the 2nd round, had Tatum not developed into a borderline superstar this season.
    Immediately after Kyrie left, don't leave out that part.
    Last edited by Phoenix; 09-18-2020 at 12:02 PM.

  10. #40
    Bran Fam Member ImKobe's Avatar
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    Default Re: Kyrie deserves an apology for the Celtics collapsing and about to lose 4 straight

    Quote Originally Posted by CelticBaller View Post
    Did you watch the ****ing games? Kyrie was the reason why we got bent by the bucks dumbass ��
    I already told you that Kyrie did suck in that series, but they weren't going to win regardless with half the team playing just as badly as well with them having no answer for Giannis either. Go back and look at those games, it's not like they were right there to win games 2-5 and Irving just happened to shoot them out of it in the end, the games were over before that. If you're his hell-bent on shitting on Kyrie for his poor shooting, do the same with Tatum, Rozier & Hayward.

    Go back & look at some of these boxscores

    Game 2, Irving is terrible in the first half with 2/12 shooting but they're right in it with the Bucks leading 59 - 55. 3rd Quarter, Bucks absolutely dominate the Celtics 39 - 18. Irving has 4 pts 2 ast 2 TO on 2/5 shooting, Horford 3 pts on 1/1 w/ 3TOs Tatum, Rozier & Hayward combine for 0 points 2 TOs on 0/8 shooting as the Bucks put away the game in that quarter as Giannis dominates them with 15 pts in under 10 minutes. He was splashing 3s too.

    Game 3, same thing, it's close at the half with Celtics leading 56 - 55, all the starters play well but the bench gives them 0 points. In the 3rd, the Bucks outscore the Celtics 40 - 31 despite Irving's 12 pts on 3/7 FG, the Celtics win the 4th 29 - 28 but were never really close enough to have a chance to win it, some garbage time points from Horford to make it look closer than it was.

    Game 4, Celtics win the first half 49 - 47. Here we go again with the 3rd quarter collapse, this time it happens despite Giannis only playing 3 minutes because of foul trouble, still puts up 7. Celtics lose the quarter 33 - 23 despite Kyrie's 5 pts 4 ast on 0/2FG, Irving has 7 pts 2 ast on 2/5FG in the 4th but Giannis steamrolls them with 17/7 on 6/9 FG in the 4th.

    Game 5 is all on Irving for shooting bricks, 5/16 in the first half for 13 points, they're down 39 - 52 at the half and another bad 3rd quarter with Giannis dominating ends the series.

    What I don't get here is how you can put it all on Irving, when the Celtics' inability to defend Giannis was the #1 issue? These games weren't even close for Irving to have any late-game magic, the Bucks came out and dominated every 3rd quarter, there was no answer for Giannis and that was the main problem. Bucks came out every 3rd half and he dominated.

  11. #41
    Local High School Star Gohan's Avatar
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    Default Re: Kyrie deserves an apology for the Celtics collapsing and about to lose 4 straight

    Damn these posters got lebowser nuts all in their mouth

  12. #42
    Bran Fam Member ImKobe's Avatar
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    Default Re: Kyrie deserves an apology for the Celtics collapsing and about to lose 4 straight

    Quote Originally Posted by Phoenix View Post
    Nets were lucky to be in the playoffs this year. Good thing Kyrie 'only' played in 20 games ( he won 8) to minimize the damage and allow the Nets to otherwise win enough games to get in.



    He had good series on the Cavs when nothing was expected of him but being a scoring weapon alongside Lebron, which he's damn good at. It's when we talk about him leading a team and making a players around him better that things fall off the track. He's a great player. But you're arguing him to be something he's never proven in any situation where he's been the best player and/or expected to lead.



    Immediately after Kyrie left, don't leave out that part.
    He played 20 total, they lost when he had his best performances and his best +/-, he also exited 2 of them due to injury IIRC which they ended up losing. It's a small sample-size nonetheless, Irving wasn't the only player injured either.

    Nothing was expected of Kyrie? Wasn't the whole '15 Finals thing about how it would have been different had Irving not been injured? Wasn't it Irving who had 41 in elimination with 10 straight points in the 4th to put away Game 5? Wasn't it Irving who Lebron told Lue to go to in an ISO to win Game 7 at the end?

    Did Tatum "immeditately" become a superstar? Or was it progression that all great young players have? And he wasn't great to start the '19-'20 season, it took him a few months.

    First 25 games - 20.8 ppg 40.7%FG/35.4%3PT
    Last 41 games - 25.1 ppg 47.6%FG/43.2%3PT

  13. #43
    I hit open 5-foot jumpshots with ease
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    Default Re: Kyrie deserves an apology for the Celtics collapsing and about to lose 4 straight

    Quote Originally Posted by r0drig0lac View Post

  14. #44
    Cancer Wally450's Avatar
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    Default Re: Kyrie deserves an apology for the Celtics collapsing and about to lose 4 straight

    Quote Originally Posted by ImKobe View Post

    Nothing was expected of Kyrie? Wasn't the whole '15 Finals thing about how it would have been different had Irving not been injured? Wasn't it Irving who had 41 in elimination with 10 straight points in the 4th to put away Game 5? Wasn't it Irving who Lebron told Lue to go to in an ISO to win Game 7 at the end?
    He's saying nothing was expected of him outside of being a scorer. That's all he had to do. You're right about the 2015 Finals being different if he played. He's fine as long as there's a leader in front of him. When he's put into the leader role, that's when teams around him fall apart.

  15. #45
    Bran Fam Member ImKobe's Avatar
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    Default Re: Kyrie deserves an apology for the Celtics collapsing and about to lose 4 straight

    Quote Originally Posted by Wally450 View Post
    He's saying nothing was expected of him outside of being a scorer. That's all he had to do. You're right about the 2015 Finals being different if he played. He's fine as long as there's a leader in front of him. When he's put into the leader role, that's when teams around him fall apart.
    This is still TBD. He was the "leader" of the Celics last season & it fell apart, looks like he was not the only issue. Jaylen Brown had his back too.

    “Kyrie, a lot of the blame was undeserving,” Brown told Robinson. “It wasn’t his fault that certain guys couldn’t take a step back. It wasn’t his fault. That was the front office and coaches fault. He gets a lot of that blame because he was the star, but a lot of that should be on the organization/coaching staff.”


    Looks like the Celtics might still be falling apart without him so maybe we should pump the breaks on that one.

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