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  1. #46
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    Default Re: Kyrie deserves an apology for the Celtics collapsing and about to lose 4 straight

    Quote Originally Posted by Roundball_Rock View Post
    The evidence speaks for itself. Even if the Celtics lose the series this is their PO performance in recent years:

    Celtics from 2017-2020

    2017: ECF
    2018: ECF
    2019: Lost in 5 in the second round
    2020: ECF

    What was different about that one outlier year?
    Welp, think we can shut this one down

  2. #47
    Consensus Top 20-30 AT Roundball_Rock's Avatar
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    Default Re: Kyrie deserves an apology for the Celtics collapsing and about to lose 4 straight

    Quote Originally Posted by Phoenix
    The point in raising 2017 is to say different team makeups of the Celtics in the last 4 years have gotten further than the Kyrie led Celtics in 2019. And generally, by players that would be considered 'worse' than Kyrie as individual talents.
    Exactly. The reason Irving gets flack is he is spoken of like a superstar, like a top 5 player when he has never been either. His resume is not that much different than Klay Thompson's but no one is hyping Klay the way Irving is hyped (e.g., Coach just the other day said Irving was "much better" than a consensus top 30 all-time player). The Celtics have gotten to the ECF with IT and Horford, with a young Tatum and Horford, and now with Tatum/Walker/Brown all leading the way. Yet Kyrie got backdoor swept with Tatum, Horford, Brown, Hayward?

    Quote Originally Posted by Phoenix
    If the Celts had actually gotten past the Bucks last year led by Kyrie this would be a 'I told you so' discussion but even then, the Bucks didn't play the Celts this year and we don't for sure what the net result would be this time around.
    The Bucks lost and got backdoor swept in the ECF. In 17', 18' the Celtics lost to the actual EC winner and if they lose to the Heat they will do so again in 20'. If we are playing this game, losing to the EC runner up is worse than losing to the EC winner.

    Quote Originally Posted by Phoenix
    Tatum was considered to be somewhat of a disappointment in 2019 relative to the expectations people had for him coming off the 2018 playoffs. And oh look, with Kyrie out of the way the natural upward curve he was on returned to the degree of him making all-NBA third team this year.
    Yup, he blossomed somewhat in the 18' playoffs with Kyrie gone but instead of taking a step forward in his second year actually got worse in 19' with Kyrie. With Kyrie gone, he has emerged as a star. A similar thing happened with Brown to lesser degrees.

    Moreover, we see signs of the same dynamic in Brooklyn.

    Finally, Kyrie is supposedly a much higher caliber a player than Walker. So how does a team essentially swap Irving for a supposedly lesser tier player and do so much better? This isn't new. Boston did better with Rozier in place of Kyrie too as did Brooklyn with Dinwiddie playing for Irving.

    What baffles me about the Irving hype is because he gets injured every single year we have large sample sizes of his teams with and without him. Since he often doesn't play in the playoffs we have playoff samples too. The evidence is clear: his teams consistently have been better without him the last three years. His shining example is 2016 but even then Cleveland did exactly the same in the games he played as the games he didn't play.

    Quote Originally Posted by Phoenix
    Nets were lucky to be in the playoffs this year. Good thing Kyrie 'only' played in 20 games ( he won 8) to minimize the damage and allow the Nets to otherwise win enough games to get in.


    Quote Originally Posted by Phoenix
    He had good series on the Cavs when nothing was expected of him but being a scoring weapon alongside Lebron, which he's damn good at. It's when we talk about him leading a team and making a players around him better that things fall off the track.
    Is it a coincidence the only times Irving's teams have had significant success is when he played with a player who is an all-time great at making teammates better? In other words, if Irving is indeed a cancer, he was playing with the best possible player of his era to offset Irving's cancerous effects. No LeBron in BOS or BRK.

    Quote Originally Posted by Phoenix
    Immediately after Kyrie left, don't leave out that part.
    Yup, and Brown took a leap forward too.

    Quote Originally Posted by Walyl450
    He's saying nothing was expected of him outside of being a scorer. That's all he had to do.
    To 3ball disciple IMKobe, there is nothing else to basketball but scoring.

  3. #48
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    Default Re: Kyrie deserves an apology for the Celtics collapsing and about to lose 4 straight

    Weren't the Celtics up 14 in the third quarter of Game 1 and up 15 in the third quarter of Game 2?

    That doesn't seem like a team that's going to get swept. This series could easily end up tied 2-2.

  4. #49
    Cancer Wally450's Avatar
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    Default Re: Kyrie deserves an apology for the Celtics collapsing and about to lose 4 straight

    Quote Originally Posted by ImKobe View Post
    This is still TBD. He was the "leader" of the Celics last season & it fell apart, looks like he was not the only issue. Jaylen Brown had his back too.

    Why are you quoting leader? He was the leader of the Celtics last season. Just because it didn't work out and there were some other guys to blame doesn't get Kyrie off the hook. He was the leader of the team that failed miserably in the second round of the playoffs. He's going to get the bulk of the blame.

  5. #50
    Consensus Top 20-30 AT Roundball_Rock's Avatar
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    Default Re: Kyrie deserves an apology for the Celtics collapsing and about to lose 4 straight

    Quote Originally Posted by Wally450 View Post
    Why are you quoting leader? He was the leader of the Celtics last season. Just because it didn't work out and there were some other guys to blame doesn't get Kyrie off the hook. He was the leader of the team that failed miserably in the second round of the playoffs. He's going to get the bulk of the blame.
    He publicly admitted he "failed" as a leader in Boston:

    Quote Originally Posted by Kyrie Irving
    "In terms of being a leader in that environment (in Boston), I failed."
    https://bleacherreport.com/articles/...ton%20Celtics.

  6. #51
    ISH Bingo card Phoenix's Avatar
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    Default Re: Kyrie deserves an apology for the Celtics collapsing and about to lose 4 straight

    Quote Originally Posted by ImKobe View Post
    He played 20 total, they lost when he had his best performances and his best +/-, he also exited 2 of them due to injury IIRC which they ended up losing. It's a small sample-size nonetheless, Irving wasn't the only player injured either.

    Nothing was expected of Kyrie? Wasn't the whole '15 Finals thing about how it would have been different had Irving not been injured? Wasn't it Irving who had 41 in elimination with 10 straight points in the 4th to put away Game 5? Wasn't it Irving who Lebron told Lue to go to in an ISO to win Game 7 at the end?

    Did Tatum "immeditately" become a superstar? Or was it progression that all great young players have? And he wasn't great to start the '19-'20 season, it took him a few months.

    First 25 games - 20.8 ppg 40.7%FG/35.4%3PT
    Last 41 games - 25.1 ppg 47.6%FG/43.2%3PT
    So the team not winning when he had his best performances you're.....saying that's an argument in Kyrie's favor? Kyrie has never had an issue getting his own. The argument is what effect his play has on the team, not whether he can get buckets. Nobody is arguing that.

    The Cavs would have had a better shot in 15 with Kyrie but once again, he worked well off Lebron because he was left to do what he was great at: be a hired gun, carry the offense when Lebron was off the floor and iso. He wasn't expected to lead, galvanize, facilitate the growth of those around him. That was Lebron's job, along with everything else he did. That was a perfect set-up for him. Then he started smelling his own farts and thought his success on the Cavs prepped him to lead a young team of up and comers. He came to find out otherwise and has admitted as much. You seem to be the only one in this thread arguing the Celts are better off with him and not their current situation.

    The progression between his rookie year and the 2019 season was much smaller than the gap between 2019 and this season. Some of it can be attributed to just getting naturally better with time ( which I already said) but there's a line where you cross into the leap both he AND Brown took this year in the absence of Kyrie, even with Kemba serving as a coke zero replacement.

    So you mean he started the season slow and picked up steam as it went on like most players? That's not an aberration.

  7. #52
    NBA Legend and Hall of Famer 3ball's Avatar
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    Default Re: Kyrie deserves an apology for the Celtics collapsing and about to lose 4 straight

    gordon hayward was the obvious cancer on that team

    Celts were headed towards juggernaut dynasty in that first year before Kyrie got hurt.. then gordon came back in year 2 and they looked like a shitty team

  8. #53
    Consensus Top 20-30 AT Roundball_Rock's Avatar
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    Default Re: Kyrie deserves an apology for the Celtics collapsing and about to lose 4 straight

    Quote Originally Posted by Phoenix View Post
    So the team not winning when he had his best performances you're.....saying that's an argument in Kyrie's favor? Kyrie has never had an issue getting his own. The argument is what effect his play has on the team, not whether he can get buckets. Nobody is arguing that.
    Yup.

    It should be noted the people who push Irving the most are the same people who go around dismissing others as "sidekicks." The fact is Irving has been a consistent failure year after year as a "#1 option." His teams are well south of .500 when he has been the "#1."

    Quote Originally Posted by Phoenix
    even with Kemba serving as a coke zero replacement.
    I like the Coke Zero analogy!

    If Irving is who people say he is you couldn't replace him with Kemba and get better results. Think of the players Irving gets lumped with. Are there any of them who you could replace with a Kemba level player and not see the team get notably worse?

    Now IMKobe's hero 3ball has shown up. You know what their agenda is...

  9. #54
    NBA Legend and Hall of Famer 3ball's Avatar
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    Default Re: Kyrie deserves an apology for the Celtics collapsing and about to lose 4 straight

    Celts cruise to Finals this year with kyrie

    he elevates teams to championship level like he did in Cleveland.. 26 on 47% in the 16' and 17' playoffs

  10. #55
    Joel "Doomsday" Embiid Mask the Embiid's Avatar
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    Default Re: Kyrie deserves an apology for the Celtics collapsing and about to lose 4 straight

    Quote Originally Posted by Wally450 View Post
    Why are you quoting leader? He was the leader of the Celtics last season. Just because it didn't work out and there were some other guys to blame doesn't get Kyrie off the hook. He was the leader of the team that failed miserably in the second round of the playoffs. He's going to get the bulk of the blame.
    Cancer...







    3 mins 12 seconds in...kyrie in the gif



    eat shit boston
    Last edited by Mask the Embiid; 09-18-2020 at 03:17 PM.

  11. #56
    ISH Bingo card Phoenix's Avatar
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    Default Re: Kyrie deserves an apology for the Celtics collapsing and about to lose 4 straight

    Quote Originally Posted by Roundball_Rock View Post
    Yup.

    It should be noted the people who push Irving the most are the same people who go around dismissing others as "sidekicks." The fact is Irving has been a consistent failure year after year as a "#1 option." His teams are well south of .500 when he has been the "#1."



    I like the Coke Zero analogy!

    If Irving is who people say he is you couldn't replace him with Kemba and get better results. Think of the players Irving gets lumped with. Are there any of them who you could replace with a Kemba level player and not see the team get notably worse?

    Now IMKobe's hero 3ball has shown up. You know what their agenda is...
    His name gets slipped in the upper echelon of guards and in terms of individual talent and skills, he is. Where it gets blurry is that people conflate that with comparable team impact to those guards, and the data is simply not there to support that notion. Then you get into agenda over-inflation.

  12. #57
    Consensus Top 20-30 AT Roundball_Rock's Avatar
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    Default Re: Kyrie deserves an apology for the Celtics collapsing and about to lose 4 straight

    Quote Originally Posted by Phoenix View Post
    His name gets slipped in the upper echelon of guards and in terms of individual talent and skills, he is. Where it gets blurry is that people conflate that with comparable team impact to those guards, and the data is simply not there to support that notion. Then you get into agenda over-inflation.
    Yup. I would add he also is a perfect player for the social media era. His game is ideal for going viral or making Sportscenter highlight reels. His talent is off the charts but talent is only part of the equation. He has been in the NBA for 10 seasons. Here is his resume compared to other guards of the same era:

    Kyrie (10 seasons): 6x all-star, 2x all-NBA (2nd and 3rd), 0 MVP finishes, ROY, ASG MVP
    Klay (8 seasons): 5x all-star, 2x all-NBA (two 3rd teams), 1 top 10 MVP (10th), 1x all-D
    Walker (9 seasons): 4x all-star, 1x all-NBA (3rd team), 0 MVP finishes
    Wall (9 seasons): 5x all-star, 1x all-NBA (3rd team), 1 top 10 MVP (7th)

    Yet people talk about him like he is in the Harden, Curry, Lillard, Westbrook, prime Paul class of guards.

  13. #58
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    Default Re: Kyrie deserves an apology for the Celtics collapsing and about to lose 4 straight

    Quote Originally Posted by ArbitraryWater View Post
    2017 w/o Kyrie: ECF
    2018 w/o Kyrie: ECF
    2019 w/ Kyrie: ECSF embarrassing 5-game flame-out
    2020 w/o Kyrie: ECF

    Lolol
    2017 w/o Hayward: ECF
    2018 w/o Hayward: ECF
    2019 w/ Hayward: ECSF embarrassing 5-game flame-out
    2020 w/o Hayward: ECF

    Checkmate babyboi

  14. #59
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    Default Re: Kyrie deserves an apology for the Celtics collapsing and about to lose 4 straight

    Quote Originally Posted by Roundball_Rock View Post
    The evidence speaks for itself. Even if the Celtics lose the series this is their PO performance in recent years:

    Celtics from 2017-2020

    2017: ECF
    2018: ECF
    2019: Lost in 5 in the second round
    2020: ECF

    What was different about that one outlier year?

  15. #60
    Linja Status Whoah10115's Avatar
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    Default Re: Kyrie deserves an apology for the Celtics collapsing and about to lose 4 straight

    Quote Originally Posted by 3ball View Post
    gordon hayward was the obvious cancer on that team

    Celts were headed towards juggernaut dynasty in that first year before Kyrie got hurt.. then gordon came back in year 2 and they looked like a shitty team
    What a great post.

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