What makes Kevin Durant clearly better than James Harden?

[Kiddlovesnets]

That guy is literally incapable of using context, same retard who says one Finals loss drops you out of being GOAT

Context is that MJ felt bored that no one was near his level that he retired to play 2 years or baseball, without this he would have 8-peat with 8 FMVPs. Isn’t this enough?

[Drygon]

Durant I think is more portable and I can see him winning on a wider variety of supporting casts. Harden is in love with 1 on 1 and being worthless off ball, so his style fits non contenders. Durant was able to just fit in perfectly with warriors.

That's about it though. Durant with thunder wasn't a better playoff performer or anything.

Harden can definitely play off-ball. He was doing it in OKC very well. It just wasn't the most effective way to use him in Houston. Harden moving off ball would change how the Rockets were designed to space the floor. Him not doing it doesn't mean he can't do it.

Just like the mid range. Harden's midrange was smooth as hell. That's where he learned how to stepback.

They just figured out it was better for him to step back behind the 3pt line instead.

Also, GSW would still win be favorites if you replaced KD with Harden/Kawhi/Giannis etc.

What happened in 2019 when CP3 wasn't hurt but KD was? I'm guessing by that logic, they should have easily finished off that series but for some reason I forget how it ended.

The game KD got hurt CP3 had likd 12 pts on 0% from 3 and 21% from the field. Harden was over 60% that game.

Durant is slightly more efficient as a scorer, better defender, & isn't a turnover machine.

Wrong. As I already said in OP, James Harden is more efficient scoring in the postseason.

KD is assisted on 46.2% of 2Ps & 73.9% of 3Ps. Harden is assisted on 15.0% of 2Ps & 30.8% of 3Ps.

Taller, more athletic, defense, doesn't have to dominate the ball to be effective...

Height is irrelevant. KD still has worse TS% compared to Harden despite being near 7ft.

I'm not sure if KD is a better athlete when his durability isn't close to Harden's.

Both of them aren't great on defense, although Harden has a slight advantage in DBPM.

KD is nowhere close on Harden's level as a playmaker, that's why he isn't dominating the ball.

To the topic, I don't think KD is 'dramatically' better as far as overall impact but the ways in which he is better are obvious. More portable skillset, great as both an iso and off ball scorer, better defender, better in-between game. Harden is obviously a better ball handler, passer and creator in terms of team offense. In general if you remove KDs years with the Warriors he hasn't really been more successful than Harden, which is where it gets fuzzy.

What makes KD a better defender than Harden.

And speaking about ISO-scoring. Harden consistency outshined KD as an ISO-scorer since NBA started tracking points per possessions.

https://stats.nba.com/players/isolat...PLAYER_NAME*E*

2016 playoffs

- James Harden: 1.16 PPP with 6.4 Isolations per Game
- Kevin Durant: 0.75 PPP with 5.3 Isolations per Game

2017 playoffs

- James Harden: 1.05 PPP with 7.0 Isolations per Game
- Kevin Durant: 1.16 PPP with 2.5 Isolations per Game

2018 playoffs

- James Harden: 1.01 PPP with 12.9 Isolations per Game
- Kevin Durant: 1.01 PPP with 7.0 Isolations per Game

2019 playoffs

- James Harden: 1.04 PPP with 15.0 Isolations per Game
- Kevin Durant: 0.96 PPP with 6.0 Isolations per Game

Harden has a scoring title, Durant has 4. Harden has a MVP season, Durant has it too. Durant has 2 FMVPs and 2 seasons as the best player in the league(2017/2018 and 2018/2019), Harden has none.

Who cares about regular season, it doesn't hold much weight. Giannis has 2x MVPs and nobody says he's better than Kawhi who has 0 MVPs.

I won't comment KD's rings & FMVP because we all know why...

[Phoenix]

What makes KD a better defender than Harden.

KD quite clearly peaked defensively on the Warriors at a level we haven't seen from Harden. You challenged that assertion with a question but havent provided any contrary argument.

Those numbers you drop about ISO shows the rate at which Harden isolates. Obviously Harden isolates alot more. To the degree of often dribbling the air out the ball and 3/4 of the shot clock setting up an iso. I'd take KDs ability to size you up at nearly 7 feet and just let it fly at a release point 99% of the league couldn't contest. You want evidence of KDs iso scoring prowess? Look up some youtube clips of the US mens team practices doing one on one drills. Dude is quite literally unstoppable. Harden is unstoppable when on too, but he's mostly 3s and layups. His midrange isnt at KDs level and has no real post game to speak off, which KD does. KD is quite clearly a more complete offensive player in terms of the ways he can attack the defense.

You're also incorrect that Harden has a higher TS%. They're both at 61%( to be exact, KD is .613 and Harden is .611). That included KD having an inefficient .519 as a rookie. Over the last 10 seasons, KD is at .623 and Harden .614.

[tpols]

Height is irrelevant. KD still has worse TS% compared to Harden despite being near 7ft.

I'm not sure if KD is a better athlete when his durability isn't close to Harden's.

Both of them aren't great on defense, although Harden has a slight advantage in DBPM.

KD is nowhere close on Harden's level as a playmaker, that's why he isn't dominating the ball.

1) Height does matter. Durant can get his shot off much easier than Harden in traffic and around the rim. Also much better shotblocker due to it.

2) Durability and athleticism have nothing to do with one another. Would anybody say John Stockton was more athletic than Derrick Rose? No.

3) Wrong. KD in his last years on OKC and in GSW was a long elite defender. Harden has been a joke most of his career outside a few pockets. (this year he was decent)

4) Being able to fit in any system on or off ball > having to use 20 seconds of the shotclock to get something off thereby establishing a low ceiling on teamwork.

[red1]

kd is much better than harden. durant is literally unguardable he's too tall athletic and skilled. if you can shoot like that and you're 7 feet tall it's game over. he's also a much better defender with that length and mobility.


meanwhile harden was nearly locked down this year by a rookie and is an average defender at best.

[Drygon]

KD quite clearly peaked defensively on the Warriors at a level we haven't seen from Harden. You challenged that assertion with a question but havent provided any contrary argument.

Those numbers you drop about ISO shows the rate at which Harden isolates. Obviously Harden isolates alot more. To the degree of often dribbling the air out the ball and 3/4 of the shot clock setting up an iso. I'd take KDs ability to size you up at nearly 7 feet and just let it fly at a release point 99% of the league couldn't contest. You want evidence of KDs iso scoring prowess? Look up some youtube clips of the US mens team practices doing one on one drills. Dude is quite literally unstoppable. Harden is unstoppable when on too, but he's mostly 3s and layups. His midrange isnt at KDs level and has no real post game to speak off, which KD does. KD is quite clearly a more complete offensive player in terms of the ways he can attack the defense.

You're also incorrect that Harden has a higher TS%. They're both at 61%( to be exact, KD is .613 and Harden is .611). That included KD having an inefficient .519 as a rookie. Over the last 10 seasons, KD is at .623 and Harden .614.

I don't care about what KD did on GSW's 73-9 team, anyone star player would've looked just as good there. I only care what KD did in OKC...

I already stated that Harden posted up a better DBPM than KD.

Harden's ISO numbers just shows how phenomenal he's at it. Or else Mike D'Antoni wouldn't let him do that.

Same reason why Steph Curry is allowed to shoot as many 3s as he wants because he's GOAT 3-point shooter.

KD's Playoff TS% is still worse than Harden despite being 7 feet.

KD is arguably more versatile scorer, but Harden is superior all-around offensive player due to his passing.

1) Height does matter. Durant can get his shot off much easier than Harden in traffic and around the rim. Also much better shotblocker due to it.

2) Durability and athleticism have nothing to do with one another. Would anybody say John Stockton was more athletic than Derrick Rose? No.

3) Wrong. KD in his last years on OKC and in GSW was a long elite defender. Harden has been a joke most of his career outside a few pockets. (this year he was decent)

4) Being able to fit in any system on or off ball > having to use 20 seconds of the shotclock to get something off thereby establishing a low ceiling on teamwork.

1) Harden has better playoffs TS% than KD despite the latter's height advantage.

2) John Stockton played 82 games in 16 season, you don't do that if you don't have durability & athleticism for it. Although Derrick Rose is an fantastic athlete himself, just in a different way.

3) KD was never elite defender at any point of his career. Anyone make a case for KD making into All-Defensive team is trolling. Harden isn't elite defender, but still doing better than KD according to DBPM.

4) Harden can play off-ball. Harden would do just as good as KD did if he played on GSW.

kd is much better than harden. durant is literally unguardable he's too tall athletic and skilled. if you can shoot like that and you're 7 feet tall it's game over. he's also a much better defender with that length and mobility.


meanwhile harden was nearly locked down this year by a rookie and is an average defender at best.

KD was not unguardable before joining GSW. He wasn't doing better than Harden in playoffs.

Why are you trying to use height as a proxy for efficiency? Playoff TS% is a better measure of playoff TS% than height is. And Harden is doing better than KD despite his scoring is heavily assisted. There's no metrics showing KD was a better defender than Harden...

[Doctor K]

I already stated that Harden posted up a better DBPM than KD.

Are you really using DBMP for defense. Andre Drummond led that stat is he the best defender? Even the creator of that stat is quoted saying he likes it better for offense than defense. You can use DBPM as a supporting argument but as your main? GO watch a game

[Carbine]

I fear basketball is going down the path of Baseball with these advanced stats. Except they actually make sense in baseball because it's an outcome based sport.

[Phoenix]

I don't care about what KD did on GSW's 73-9 team, anyone star player would've looked just as good there. I only care what KD did in OKC...

I already stated that Harden posted up a better DBPM than KD.

Harden's ISO numbers just shows how phenomenal he's at it. Or else Mike D'Antoni wouldn't let him do that.

Same reason why Steph Curry is allowed to shoot as many 3s as he wants because he's GOAT 3-point shooter.

KD's Playoff TS% is still worse than Harden despite being 7 feet.

KD is arguably more versatile scorer, but Harden is superior all-around offensive player due to his passing.

What you don't care about is irrelevant. KD on the Warriors peaked higher defensively. 7th in DBPM in 2017 compared to Harden being 20th in that category this year. It's not as if Harden hasn't had talented enough teams for him to make better defensive efforts before. The 2018 Rockets that took the Warriors to seven, for example. Just the eye test reveals that KDs length makes him more disruptive defensively, especially as a shot blocker. Since you want it use DBPM as a metric, KD in 2016 on OKC had a higher one and ranked 14th, Harden was nowhere in the picture. Even outside of the Warriors KD at worse was an average/decent defender. Harden more or less had the reputation of being a non-defender the vast majority of his career until recently.

Hardens ISO numbers are a product of the D'Antoni system that puts the ball in the PGs hands at very high usage rates. Harden is a great ISO player obviously, but as already said this often comes at the expense of ball movement which caps the team offense. Dribbling the air out the ball in front of the defense looking for a way to exploit the defender will lead to high ISO numbers. Let's see what happens next year when a different coach comes in and probably installs a different offense. The next step for Harden is to be more of a threat in different spots on the floor. Until he can do that consistently his teams will always get only so far.

What TS% are you looking at? KDs career playoff TS% is .597, Harden is .585. Also, what about field goal percentage? Harden is 44% for his career, KD is 49%. Its cute and all to use TS% because that includes free throw shooting, but a look further under the hood reveals a huge difference in their field goal efficiency. And that's not Warriors dependant because KD is 48% before he left OKC.

Harden shoots the same number of 3s as Steph but at a lower percentage. How many 2/18 three point nights have we seen from him and what does this say about his offense when the 3 isnt falling and he cant get to rhe rim?

I've already said Harden is a better ball handler, facilitator and passer. Taking that into account yes it's not far fetched that he may be a better overall 'offensive' player, but as a scorer you are in agreement with my premise that KD has the more versatile scoring skillset.

[LoneyROY7]

kd is much better than harden. durant is literally unguardable he's too tall athletic and skilled. if you can shoot like that and you're 7 feet tall it's game over. he's also a much better defender with that length and mobility.


meanwhile harden was nearly locked down this year by a rookie and is an average defender at best.

"nearly locked down by a rookie" but averaged 30/8/6 on over 46 percent for the series. Good take, champ.