LeBron, Jordan Teammates' Game Score Share Comparison (Each Finals)

[Roundball_Rock]

Make of it what you will but here is a universal measure of "help", which is hotly debated as both sides claim the other guy had more help. This also is measured against what others did in the same context, not comparing numbers accrued 25 or 30 years apart in very different eras.

Game Scores: LeBron's Teammates

FINALS TEAM TEAMMATE %

2011 Miami 40%
2007 Cleveland 37%
2012 Miami 37%
2020 L.A. Lakers 36%
2013 Miami 36%
2016 Cleveland 33%
2017 Cleveland 30%
2015 Cleveland 28%
2018 Cleveland 27%
2014 Miami 26%

Game Scores: Jordan's Teammates

FINALS TEAM TEAMMATE %

1996 Chicago 40%
1998 Chicago 38%
1991 Chicago 38%
1992 Chicago 37%
1997 Chicago 33%
1993 Chicago 33%

Jordan's teammates averaged 36% of the total game score in the series during his six Finals appearances, as compared to an average of 33% for LeBron. https://www.espn.com/nba/insider/sto...ael-jordan-six

It is interesting Jordan's teammates' lowest share is equal to the 16' Cavs, which is middle of the pack for LeBron's teammates.

What is "Game Score":

Game Score was created by John Hollinger to give a rough measure of a player's productivity for a single game. The scale is similar to that of points scored, (40 is an outstanding performance, 10 is an average performance, etc.).

[dankok8]

Of course Jordan's winning Bulls teams will be better on average than all of Lebron's teams in the Finals including those that lost. That isn't really a revelation.

If you take the 4 years Lebron's teams won titles:

2012 Miami 37%
2013 Miami 36%
2016 Cleveland 33%
2020 Lakers 36%

Average: 35.5% (which is extremely close to Jordan's 36.5%)

Don't forget that Jordan had much more dominant runs. Apart from 1993 and maybe 1998, his teams were never pushed to the brink so he leveraged similar supporting casts to much more dominance. On the other hand, Lebron really sweated out his first three titles. That's an argument one can use against Lebron.

Note the Dallas series in 2011 and Spurs series in 2007. Lebron's teammates played well so even these metrics show he's the one who crapped the bed.

[And1AllDay]

Of course Jordan's winning Bulls teams will be better on average than all of Lebron's teams in the Finals including those that lost. That isn't really a revelation.

If you take the 4 years Lebron's teams won titles:

2012 Miami 37%
2013 Miami 36%
2016 Cleveland 33%
2020 Lakers 36%

Average: 35.5% (which is extremely close to Jordan's 36.5%)

your half way there bruh

when stars get help they win, when they dont...they dont

almost full circle keep going your right there

[And1AllDay]

Don't forget that Jordan had much more dominant runs. Apart from 1993 and maybe 1998, his teams were never pushed to the brink so he leveraged similar supporting casts to much more dominance. On the other hand, Lebron really sweated out his first three titles. That's an argument one can use against Lebron.

Note the Dallas series in 2011 and Spurs series in 2007. Lebron's teammates played well so even these metrics show he's the one who crapped the bed.

let this sink in deep

brans finals opponents > mikes

brans finals opponent in 2012 (westbrook) as #2 option outscored all of mikes #1 option opponnents

and jimmy butler in 2020 out scored 5 of 6 mike #1 option opponents

its levels to this bruh. mikes competition was in the pee wee league compared to brans competition


your almost getting it

[dankok8]

your half way there bruh

when stars get help they win, when they dont...they dont

almost full circle keep going your right there

I never blame Lebron for losing. I blame him for the 2007 and 2011 Finals because he should have played much better in those.

[And1AllDay]

I never blame Lebron for losing. I blame him for the 2007 and 2011 Finals because he should have played much better in those.

2011 was wade and bran


2007 he was 22 years old and should have got his cheeks clapped in the 1st round like good ol mikey for the 1-9 first round sweep legacy saver

[Roundball_Rock]

your half way there bruh

when stars get help they win, when they dont...they dont

Yup.

To me the consistency is what is most striking, which came up in another thread talking about teammates. The Bulls' worst was 33%. In 4 of 6 finals they were between 37-40%.

LeBron's teams' floor was 26% (and it was actually Miami, not the 07' or 18' Cavs). He had four teams at 30% or below. The variance was 26% to 40%.

If you play fantasy football you know what I'm talking about. There is something to be said for going to your league's Super Bowl and knowing you can rely on a certain level of production from your players, versus the feeling you have with boom or bust players (in which case you probably lost before the chip ).

[LAmbruh]

don't forget lower fg% and scoring is due to increased defense and violent physicality is being played!

[3ball]

.

SB Nation analyzes the poor fit between Wade/Lebron


There's a reason Miami is struggling when lebron/wade are on the floor together.. The Spurs' defensive strategy throughout the playoffs has been simple: identify players who aren't good spot-up shooters and help mercilessly off them to cramp the space of penetrators.

Wade has been one of the players San Antonio identified as a poor spot-up shooter that can be helped off mercilessly. That has cramped LeBron's space when the two are in together. The inverse is also true: the Spurs are shrinking Wade's space by helping off LeBron.

However, when one of the two is out of the game in favor of additional perimeter shooting, there's nobody the Spurs can help off, giving LeBron and Wade more space to be themselves and attack San Antonio's air-tight schemes.

https://www.sbnation.com/2013/6/19/4...-finals-game-6

TLDR: the Spurs forced Wade and Lebron to be spot-up shooters by leaving them open when the other guy drives.. otoh, Jordan was an elite spot-up shooter and off-ball player, so the Spurs couldn't employ their strategy and would lose.. otoh, the Spurs perfected their strategy in 14' and destroyed the Heat


^^^ so lebron reduces teammates - his skill restriction to ball-dominance doesn't fit with various player-types like Wade, Hughes, Ingram, Pippen

[dankok8]

Yup.

To me the consistency is what is most striking, which came up in another thread talking about teammates. The Bulls' worst was 33%. In 4 of 6 finals they were between 37-40%.

LeBron's teams' floor was 26% (and it was actually Miami, not the 07' or 18' Cavs). He had four teams at 30% or below. The variance was 26% to 40%.

If you play fantasy football you know what I'm talking about. There is something to be said for going to your league's Super Bowl and knowing you can rely on a certain level of production from your players, versus the feeling you have with boom or bust players (in which case you probably lost before the chip ).

What exactly is the argument though? Lebron dragged a bunch of weak teams to the finals... like in 2018. It's because the teams in the East were a joke. And they lost those finals which isn't a surprise and I never blame Lebron for losing to the Warriors in 2018.

[dankok8]

2011 was wade and bran


2007 he was 22 years old and should have got his cheeks clapped in the 1st round like good ol mikey for the 1-9 first round sweep legacy saver

Mikey had to go through 5 HOFer Celtics teams whereas Lebron went through minnows. Hint: one of them had weak competition.

[And1AllDay]

don't forget lower fg% and scoring is due to increased defense and violent physicality is being played!

+1

hella violent era

[And1AllDay]

Mikey had to go through 5 HOFer Celtics teams whereas Lebron went through minnows. Hint: one of them had weak competition.

bran shoulda had his cheeks clapped mikey style with three 1st round exits i guess

[3ball]

What exactly is the argument though? Lebron dragged a bunch of weak teams to the finals... like in 2018. It's because the teams in the East were a joke. And they lost those finals which isn't a surprise and I never blame Lebron for losing to the Warriors in 2018.

They're lauding pippen for outscoring an opposing 2nd option, but lebron's biggest win came with his 2nd option destroying their 1st option

They know that pippen was outscored or matched in 42% of playoff series, with most of those in the biggest series, aka 16 on 40% in 5 ECF, 2 Finals and a 7-game ECSF

he never dominated any matchup... There was always someone comparable to oppose him on the other side..

[And1AllDay]

They're lauding pippen for outscoring an opposing 2nd option, but lebron's biggest win came with his 2nd option destroying their 1st option

They know that pippen was outscored or matched in 42% of playoff series, with most of those in the biggest series, aka 16 on 40% in 5 ECF, 2 Finals and a 7-game ECSF

he never dominated any matchup... There was always someone comparable to oppose him on the other side..

finals ppgz comparing #2 options
pippen vs opponent #2 option

1991 finals pip out scored #1 and #2 option on lakers by 14.3%
1992 finals pip out scored #2 option on blazers by 28.3%
1993 finals pip out scored #2 option on suns by 23.3%
1996 finals pip was outscored by #2 option on sonics by 14.6%
1997 finals pip out scored #2 option on jazz by 33.3%
1998 finals pip out scored #2 option on jazz by 46.7%

AND WE HAVENT EVEN TALKED DEFENSE, REBOUNDING, ASSIST, STEALS, BLKS, MY BOI


what have you done 3baLLLLLLLL?