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  1. #16
    NBA Legend and Hall of Famer 3ball's Avatar
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    Default Re: LeBron, Jordan Teammates' Game Score Share Comparison (Each Finals)

    Quote Originally Posted by And1AllDay View Post
    finals ppgz comparing #2 options
    pippen vs opponent #2 option

    1991 finals pip out scored #1 and #2 option on lakers by 14.3%
    1992 finals pip out scored #2 option on blazers by 28.3%
    1993 finals pip out scored #2 option on suns by 23.3%
    1996 finals pip was outscored by #2 option on sonics by 14.6%
    1997 finals pip out scored #2 option on jazz by 33.3%
    1998 finals pip out scored #2 option on jazz by 46.7%


    what have you done 3baLLLLLLLL?
    pippen was outscored or matched in 42% of playoff series, with most of those in the biggest series, aka 16 on 40% in 5 ECF, 2 Finals and a 7-game ECSF

    Lebron's #2 had to share with a star #3 so lebron had 2 pippen's sharing

  2. #17
    Consensus Top 20-30 AT Roundball_Rock's Avatar
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    Default Re: LeBron, Jordan Teammates' Game Score Share Comparison (Each Finals)

    Apart from 1993 and maybe 1998, his teams were never pushed to the brink so he leveraged similar supporting casts to much more dominance
    This is a nice story but doesn't hold up. In 92', 93', 97', and 98' the Bulls came within a whisker of being forced to go to a Game 7. Not sure why you are extricating 93' and 98' randomly from the sample.

    As to similar supporting casts, we are talking statistical production. There is no real way to capture defensive production in stats. The Bulls' had 3 all-time great defenders plus Harper (the guy who guarded Stockton) in the 1996-1998 period. Stats won't tell you that but the W-L column shows the 1991-1993 team won 61, 67, 57 while the 1996-1998 team won 72, 69, 62 (67 win pace with Pippen).

    don't forget lower fg% and scoring is due to increased defense and violent physicality is being played
    Yup, which they selectively invoke. Game score is based on what everyone did in a given game (so here we are getting the series averages) so everyone is in the same bucket as far as rules, pace, etc.

    What exactly is the argument though? Lebron dragged a bunch of weak teams to the finals... like in 2018
    The lowest team wasn't 2018. It wasn't 2007. It was the Heat...

    It's because the teams in the East were a joke.
    So we are to credit Kyrie Irving for outplaying the #1's on "joke" teams but not the Cavs for beating the same teams?

    2015 Love was out for the final three rounds. Irving was out half the ECF and did little when he played. Was that LeBron "carrying" against joke competition? The Hawks had 4 all-stars (MJ never faced a team with 4 all-stars; LeBron has done it in 15' and 12'). The Bulls had Butler, Gasol, Rose, and Noah. If MJ fans are going to hype Price, Daughtery, Nance then surely Butler, Gasol, Rose, and Noah are legitimate competition.

    07' is shaky as well. The Nets had Kidd and Carter, granted they were a .500 team but the Cavs themselves were a 50 win team so we aren't talking a massive difference. Even if we say the Nets sucked, the Pistons can't be described that way. The Pistons made the ECF every year from 2003-2008 and won a chip and made another finals in the middle of the run. The narrative is they were washed in 07'--but they had the second best record in the NBA, made the ECF, and played the Celtics tougher than the Lakers did the very next year.

    Moreover, LeBron did it with getting nothing from an injured Hughes, his #2 option, in the ECF. Hughes was 7/3/2.

    A lot of this is excuse making to diminish Jordan not being able to do the same and MJ has to be>LeBron in everything. Are we going to say MJ would have made a finals with Grant/Rodman out the ECSF/ECF and Pippen out half the ECF and ineffective in the other half? Or getting 7/3/2 from Pippen in an ECF?

    We can say he would have, but we know the answer. We saw the Bulls without Grant/Rodman in 95'...

    Mikey had to go through 5 HOFer Celtics teams whereas
    Being the 8 seed has consequences. LeBron's teams are at a 50+ win level each year from 2006 on, except for 19' (they were 45-37 in 08' but that is because they went 0-7 w/out LeBron. They had a 50 win pace with him).
    Last edited by Roundball_Rock; 10-23-2020 at 01:22 AM.

  3. #18
    NBA Legend and Hall of Famer 3ball's Avatar
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    Default Re: LeBron, Jordan Teammates' Game Score Share Comparison (Each Finals)

    Pippen is the only shitty player that people say is a star - no other 16/5 bricklayer is considered a star

    No one with pippen's playoff performance or weak peak capability is considered a star

    Only MJ elevated this bum and the 2-star format allowed 6/6

  4. #19
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    Default Re: LeBron, Jordan Teammates' Game Score Share Comparison (Each Finals)

    Quote Originally Posted by 3ball View Post
    Pippen is the only shitty player that people say is a star - no other 16/5 bricklayer is considered a star

    No one with pippen's playoff performance or weak peak capability is considered a star

    Only MJ elevated this bum and the 2-star format allowed 6/6
    No Pip no chip

  5. #20
    9x All Defensive 1st And1AllDay's Avatar
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    Default Re: LeBron, Jordan Teammates' Game Score Share Comparison (Each Finals)

    Quote Originally Posted by 3ball View Post
    Pippen is the only shitty player that people say is a star - no other 16/5 bricklayer is considered a star

    No one with pippen's playoff performance or weak peak capability is considered a star

    Only MJ elevated this bum and the 2-star format allowed 6/6
    if pip was a bricklayer but was 3rd in mvp in 94 and the top 4 90s player then

    WHAT DOES THAT SAY ABOUT YOUR WHOLE ERA BRUH

    wake tf up

  6. #21
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    Default Re: LeBron, Jordan Teammates' Game Score Share Comparison (Each Finals)

    Quote Originally Posted by dankok8 View Post
    Of course Jordan's winning Bulls teams will be better on average than all of Lebron's teams in the Finals including those that lost. That isn't really a revelation.

    If you take the 4 years Lebron's teams won titles:

    2012 Miami 37%
    2013 Miami 36%
    2016 Cleveland 33%
    2020 Lakers 36%

    Average: 35.5% (which is extremely close to Jordan's 36.5%)

    Don't forget that Jordan had much more dominant runs. Apart from 1993 and maybe 1998, his teams were never pushed to the brink so he leveraged similar supporting casts to much more dominance. On the other hand, Lebron really sweated out his first three titles. That's an argument one can use against Lebron.

    Note the Dallas series in 2011 and Spurs series in 2007. Lebron's teammates played well so even these metrics show he's the one who crapped the bed.
    Furthermore, if you take the top 6, the average is the same so I’m not sure what this is supposed to tell us. No one reasonable thinks Lebron should’ve won in all 10 Finals. More then 4? Yes.

  7. #22
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    Default Re: LeBron, Jordan Teammates' Game Score Share Comparison (Each Finals)

    Quote Originally Posted by guy View Post
    Furthermore, if you take the top 6, the average is the same so I’m not sure what this is supposed to tell us. No one reasonable thinks Lebron should’ve won in all 10 Finals. More then 4? Yes.
    Don't provide context to Bran stans. It doesn't work. You'll find they'll push their own arguments onto you and then try to force you to say that you're saying them.

    It's kinda like the HOF argument. Does anyone say that MJ faced more HOF'ers in the playoffs/finals? Then you show them that if you actually compare the two in equal time frames (i.e, 15 seasons), MJ played in 37 playoff series while LeBron played in 45.

    At that point, it just becomes a law of probabilities, especially when you factor in injuries that killed the chances of guys like KJ, Daughtery, Cummings, Penny, etc from making the Hall. But of course, that's MJ's fault, too.

  8. #23
    Consensus Top 20-30 AT Roundball_Rock's Avatar
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    Default Re: LeBron, Jordan Teammates' Game Score Share Comparison (Each Finals)

    Quote Originally Posted by And1allday
    if pip was a bricklayer but was 3rd in mvp in 94 and the top 4 90s player then

    WHAT DOES THAT SAY ABOUT YOUR WHOLE ERA BRUH
    Think about their argument: MJ's era was so weak that a bum was getting MVP votes, all-NBA 1st teams, etc. The clear implication is the 90's had so few good players, voters quickly ran out and had to give votes to a scrub. Remember, these are rankings in given years. So if you believe this line of thinking, there must have been only 2, 3, or 4 good players and 0-1 good forwards in the 90's.

    How did a scrub wind up ahead of prime Malone and prime Barkley multiple times in all-NBA voting (all forwards so were on the same ballot)? How are we to take MJ's "comp" seriously then if these are the "#1's" MJ faced in half his finals?

    Also, compare it to their darling Irving who they tell us is this great superstar. In this era Irving is 2x all-NBA in 9 seasons, never made a first team, made one second team, has never gotten a MVP vote let alone be a MVP candidate (each voter has to pick 5 players; no one has ever picked Kyrie, and there are 100 or so voters each year...). How stacked must this era be then if a player so great is just another occasional all-NBA guy and a zero in MVP? Draymond Green has made as many all-NBA teams as Irving--and he was the 3rd/4th option on the other team, not the 2nd.

    Quote Originally Posted by guy
    Furthermore, if you take the top 6, the average is the same so I’m not sure what this is supposed to tell us.


    So if we take the top 60% for LeBron's teammates that=100% of MJ's teammates?

    The info in the OP could be construed many different ways. One would be both had similar levels of help (which is notable since both sides say their guy had no help and the other guy was on stacked teams). Not surprisingly, no MJ or LeBron fan has read it that way.

    Another way to read it is Jordan had the edge. Several MJ fans are noting all the winning teams here got 33%--which implies MJ got "help" sufficient to win each time while LeBron didn't about half the time. There is something to be said about consistency--a charge MJ fans level at his own teammates. Then we find his teammates were more consistent.

    You also can read it as MJ's teammates were better since MJ is the GOAT finals performer right? So getting 36% on a team with MJ is much harder to do than 33% on a team with LeBron.

    For MJ fans to equate 33% assumes MJ and LeBron had equal caliber performances, which I have never seen MJ fans ever do before regarding the finals.

    These players had different cores. Let's break them out.

    Teammate Game Score Shares by Team "Era"

    MJ Bulls 1991-1993: 38%, 37%, 33% average (36%)
    MJ Bulls 1996-1998: 40%, 33%, 38% (average 37%)
    LJ Cavs 2007: 37%
    LJ Heat 2011-2014: 40%, 37%, 36%, 26% (average 35%)
    LJ Cavs 2015-2018: 28%, 33%, 30%, 27% (average 29.5%)
    LJ Lakers 2020: 36%

    These mostly cut against MJ stans' narratives. The teams they denigrate as the least help--the second threepeat--had the most help by this metric, especially the 96' and 98' teams. The 2016 and 2017 Kyrie-based hype gets exploded as they were at 33% and 30% in those two finals. MJ never got anything close to 30%--his fans bitch about 40% . The Heat also average out behind either iteration of the Bulls.

    2007 cuts against LeBron. That is a high share--which has more to do with LeBron than his teammates. Because LeBron was bad (by GOAT standards) that meant the share of his teammates grew since he didn't put up a big number. So his fans can legitimately note that was a historically weak finals "cast" but the elephant in the room is LeBron didn't do his part either. He didn't do what he did later in 15' and 18' back in 07'.

    Game scores don't tell us anything about defense. We know the Bulls had all-time great defenses with all-time great defenders. The Lakers had AD, a DPOY caliber player. The Heat, Cavs didn't have these elements in their "casts." The real margin on the court would likely be higher in favor of the Bulls, 20' Lakers than what GS tells us on paper.
    Last edited by Roundball_Rock; 10-23-2020 at 11:34 AM.

  9. #24
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    Default Re: LeBron, Jordan Teammates' Game Score Share Comparison (Each Finals)

    Who needs the "GameScore" when we know LeBron's played with two superstars and two perennial allstars. Four of them being franchise caliber players while LeBron was still in his prime. When competing for a tile, Jordan never had another teammate who BOTH outscored him and played better defense. LeBron's had 2 in AD and Wade

  10. #25
    Consensus Top 20-30 AT Roundball_Rock's Avatar
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    Default Re: LeBron, Jordan Teammates' Game Score Share Comparison (Each Finals)

    Quote Originally Posted by MadDog View Post
    Who needs the "GameScore" when we know LeBron's played with two superstars and two perennial allstars.
    Because that has been done before (it is interesting MJ fans call Bosh a superstar and then call first ballot HOF'ers "shitty"). We know MJ had more HOF on his teams; the other team had less in the finals. With LeBron it was the opposite--the comp had more HOF; LeBron's teams had less. All-NBA? Same story there.

    Let's do all-NBA real quick to illustrate. Remove the best player.

    1991: Worthy
    1992: Pippen
    1993: Pippen
    1996: Pippen, Kemp
    1997: Pippen, Stockton
    1998: Pippen

    6-3 edge for Jordan's teams. Jordan faced 0 all-NBA "cast" members in half his finals and he never faced multiple like LeBron did in 16', and 17'.

    This doesn't even get to nuance, like Pippen being 1st team (2nd highest vote getter behind MJ)>Kemp being on the 2nd or Pippen being on the 2nd>Stockton being on the 3rd. Or third guys, where the Bulls had the edge. Rodman vs. Hornacek? Come on.

    2007: 0
    2011: Wade
    2012: Wade, Westbrook
    2013: Wade (counting Duncan as the best player this year)
    2014: 0 (counting Parker as the best player this year)
    2015: Irving (1 game), Klay (6 games)
    2016: Klay, Green
    2017: Curry, Green
    2018: Curry
    2020: Davis

    4 for LeBron, 5 if you count Irving playing one game. The opposition had 7.

    Not surprisingly, Jordan had more all-NBA on his team; the other guy had less all-NBA on his team.

    HOF would tell us the same story. The Bulls faced Magic, Worthy, Drexler, Barkley, Payton, Malone, and Stockton. That is 7 total HOF'ers. LeBron faced 4 in 13', 14' alone.

  11. #26
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    Default Re: LeBron, Jordan Teammates' Game Score Share Comparison (Each Finals)

    Quote Originally Posted by HoopsNY View Post
    Don't provide context to Bran stans. It doesn't work. You'll find they'll push their own arguments onto you and then try to force you to say that you're saying them.

    It's kinda like the HOF argument. Does anyone say that MJ faced more HOF'ers in the playoffs/finals? Then you show them that if you actually compare the two in equal time frames (i.e, 15 seasons), MJ played in 37 playoff series while LeBron played in 45.

    At that point, it just becomes a law of probabilities, especially when you factor in injuries that killed the chances of guys like KJ, Daughtery, Cummings, Penny, etc from making the Hall. But of course, that's MJ's fault, too.
    I don't know how this helps their argument. If you're going strictly by game score, which we shouldn't but if we are, doesn't this say he should've won in 2007, which we largely give him a pass for, because he had way more help in 2007 and his performance was even worse than we all thought otherwise?

  12. #27
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    Default Re: LeBron, Jordan Teammates' Game Score Share Comparison (Each Finals)

    Quote Originally Posted by Roundball_Rock
    Because that has been done before (it is interesting MJ fans call Bosh a superstar and then call first ballot HOF'ers "shitty"). We know MJ had more HOF on his teams; the other team had less in the finals. With LeBron it was the opposite--the comp had more HOF; LeBron's teams had less. All-NBA? Same story there.

    Let's do all-NBA real quick to illustrate. Remove the best player.
    I actually forgot about Bosh The two "superstars" I referred to were AD and Wade. And the other 2 allstars were Love/Irving and now make that 3 with Bosh. The difference between Jordan having Pippen is pretty clear though. Pippen got drafted by Chicago and was a scrub-like player his first 2 or so years. LeBron joined "made" players like Wade (who was on his level if not better) and Bosh in 2010. Another apples and oranges comparison. Even moreso knowing that AD and Wade were probably better than LeBron himself.

  13. #28
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    Default Re: LeBron, Jordan Teammates' Game Score Share Comparison (Each Finals)

    Quote Originally Posted by Roundball_Rock View Post

    So if we take the top 60% for LeBron's teammates that=100% of MJ's teammates?
    Unless the expectation is that Lebron should’ve gone 10-0 vs. Jordan’s 6-0, whats the issue?

    If you’re going strictly by game score, the range in wins is 33% to 40%. Not surprisingly the two losses that were still within that range are the 2 worse performances measured by game score by either Jordan or Lebron, 2007 and 2011 for Lebron.

    That’s not relevant? I think it makes sense that if we’re going strictly by this data maybe he deserves a pass for the 4 Finals below that 33% minimum, but not for any above that. So by that standard, he should have 6 titles, not 4.

    Quote Originally Posted by Roundball_Rock View Post
    These players had different cores. Let's break them out.

    Teammate Game Score Shares by Team "Era"

    MJ Bulls 1991-1993: 38%, 37%, 33% average (36%)
    MJ Bulls 1996-1998: 40%, 33%, 38% (average 37%)
    LJ Cavs 2007: 37%
    LJ Heat 2011-2014: 40%, 37%, 36%, 26% (average 35%)
    LJ Cavs 2015-2018: 28%, 33%, 30%, 27% (average 29.5%)
    LJ Lakers 2020: 36%
    What the f*** is this? What does Team “era” average have do with anything? So now after I’ve pointed out that the data doesn’t bare out to what you want, you’re trying to misconstrue it with some other bullshit observation? Anyone with a brain can see that the Heat average is dragged out by the last year, what does that have to do with the first 3 years? And even just by looking at singular years, most can conclude that he shouldn’t have won most of the 2nd Cavs era titles. Lumping them all together doesn’t tell me anything different.

    I could care less about the other BS you wrote about other narratives. YOU presented this data. I’m not saying he should’ve definitely won in 2007, but this is your topic and the data you wanted to present. If you want to make the tired old argument that “Lebron had less help then Jordan” this clearly isn’t the data you should be using.

  14. #29
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    Default Re: LeBron, Jordan Teammates' Game Score Share Comparison (Each Finals)

    Quote Originally Posted by guy View Post
    I don't know how this helps their argument. If you're going strictly by game score, which we shouldn't but if we are, doesn't this say he should've won in 2007, which we largely give him a pass for, because he had way more help in 2007 and his performance was even worse than we all thought otherwise?
    You lost me. I was mainly discussing the HOF argument. Roundball mentioned it again just now, lol.

    HOF would tell us the same story. The Bulls faced Magic, Worthy, Drexler, Barkley, Payton, Malone, and Stockton. That is 7 total HOF'ers. LeBron faced 4 in 13', 14' alone.
    No context at all. Not to mention, he reached the finals in a plethora of years where the Eastern Conference was a cakewalk. The HOF argument is one of the biggest revisionist arguments I've heard in recent years.

  15. #30
    NBA Legend and Hall of Famer 3ball's Avatar
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    Default Re: LeBron, Jordan Teammates' Game Score Share Comparison (Each Finals)

    Quote Originally Posted by And1AllDay View Post
    if pip was a bricklayer but was 3rd in mvp in 94 and the top 4 90s player then

    WHAT DOES THAT SAY ABOUT YOUR WHOLE ERA BRUH

    wake tf up
    Paul George was 3rd for MVP too

    It means zero

    MJ won 6 rings with a Paul George caliber player, except George had better stats than pippen

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