LeBron, Jordan Teammates' Game Score Share Comparison (Each Finals)

[3ball]

This is more deception. Deception after deception after deception.



In the finals, Pippen was 20+ 4 of 6 times and was at that level through 4 games before injuring his back in Game 5 in 98'. The other guys? They cleared 20+ PPG 1x out of 6 tries. Stockton couldn't even get to 10 PPG in one of them (you have to round up to get him there). Keep in mind MJ stans assail Pippen's scoring 24/7. If he sucked at scoring, how weak was MJ's comp? Look at this list and their scoring.

Notice MJ stains talk about Pippen's scoring but not that of any of his counterparts from the same era? Is there some sort of problem there that needs to be concealed? Why don't you ever see them talking about how often Stockton, Starks, Smits, Daughtery, Porter, Elliott, etc. outscored the opposing #2 option?

You know the answer...

42% of all playoff series

33% during the championship years

[Roundball_Rock]

Roundball providing excellent knowledge to this thread, thank you.

[MadDog]

Stockton was praised in this very thread and is revered by MJ stans (Kemp, Miller, Ewing, Stockton are particular fascinations of theirs--combined they have as many all-NBA 1st teams as Pippen, who sucks, alone does). He never gets attacked for going 0-2--Pippen somehow does for 6-0 (the implication being if there was a Stockton, Starks, Smits, Porter, KJ, Worthy, Dumars, Daughtery, etc. instead of Pippen "MJ" would have won more chips and/or by larger margins. I can see that. With Starks 72-10 would have been 80-2! ). Malone gets the blame for the finals losses. To the extent Stockton gets critiqued, you know which fan base rushes to his defense, right? I'm not talking Jazz fans.

It is true the Jazz may have won if Malone played better but it is equally true the Jazz may have won if Stockton did (or Hornacek for that matter). Especially in 98'. 9.7 PPG doesn't cut it in an era where Jordan's fans say 20 PPG was terrible.

So are you going to hold LeBron accountable for 2011 or what? Regardless of whether he was a "sidekick" he cost Wade another FMVP. Since the topic is LeBron vs Jordan, though, when did another teammate of Jordan's outplay him in the postseason? And when did Jordan ever win/lose in that scenario?

[RRR3]

So are you going to hold LeBron accountable for 2011 or what? Regardless of whether he was a "sidekick" he cost Wade another FMVP. Since the topic is LeBron vs Jordan, though, when did another teammate of Jordan's outplay him in the postseason? And when did Jordan ever win/lose in that scenario?

You pretending Pippen never outplayed Jordan in a series doesn’t make it true, coach.

[MadDog]

You pretending Pippen never outplayed Jordan in a series doesn’t make it true, coach.

I'm not talking about a "series", you misunderstood. The numbers show '11 Wade outperformed LeBron throughout the playoffs.

[Roundball_Rock]

So are you going to hold LeBron accountable for 2011 or what?

I've said LeBron choked in 11' on ISH from the point he did it onward. I've never made an excuse for him. Yes, legends need to be held accountable when they underachieve--but you guys only do that with 2 small forwards. When a thread is posted to hold Stockton, Ewing, Miller, Malone, etc. to account or they are held accountable within threads? You know what MJ stans do: rush to defend them--and these are people with a lot longer list of "bad" series and moments than the 2 SFs who make you all so insecure.

I posted a few threads using MJ stans' own logic on players not named Pippen or LeBron to see if they had any actual principles they would apply to those players. They never did.

You pretending Pippen never outplayed Jordan in a series doesn’t make it true, coach.

How many accounts is he going to create?

[guy]

Yeah, like I noted a few times, the OP could be construed favorably to MJ. MJ stans are up in arms anyway.

Who’s up in arms but you? You’re upset that people call out that Lebron is below .500 but then the data you presented shows that he should be 6-4 which is essentially saying the same thing .

Oh, these weren't my #'s. It was from the ESPN article I linked. What he did was took total GS for the team and then subtracted MJ or LeBron and calculated what teammates accounted for. He didn't do the same for the opposition. That would be interesting to see.

It’s clearly for the entire game score, both teams included. There’s no way Jordan and Lebron’s game score shares were 60%-70% of their teams total.

They played in different eras, different pace, rules, etc. so anything that is comparing them to their eras is better than randomly comparing numbers. It is funny how often MJ stans do that to deflate the stats of MJ's teammates--it works the other too. If you adjusted for pace, pointed out efficiency was higher due to softer defenses, etc., that would boost MJ too.

I mention pace and acknowledge this is a good stat to use since it adjusts for that and the response is:

MJ Stans MJ Stans MJ Stans

On the street or if you polled people at a NBA game? Sure, but not in these debates, whether you are talking ISH, Twitter, or commentators/analysts in the media. 6-0 vs. 4-6 comes up a lot.

I’ve rarely ever heard anyone say Lebron should be 10-0 or won 7-8 finals even on this board so what the f*ck are you making up now?

The fact that he should at minimum have 1 more, possibly 2 more, is a pretty big blip for him when it comes to the debate with Jordan so it’s pointed out.

There is no perfect way to assess how strong a "supporting cast" is. To me the best way is simply seeing what happens if that player is removed from the equation, assuming the core of the team remains the same or filled with similar players (so the 11' Cavs or 99' Bulls tell us nothing). This doesn't require stats, analytics, etc. Just W-L on the court.

The problem is MJ fans are adamant what a team did w/out a player tells us nothing (for obvious reasons) and we have limited samples. How often do #1's miss large chunks of the season? Retire in their prime? Change teams? Etc.

It doesn’t say nothing but it doesn’t say a lot either because there’s a ton of noise in there and as you yourself said, there’s limited samples of comparable situations.

You really don’t see the huge flaws in these arguments? You really think it makes sense to apply the 94 Bulls (the most important team performance in NBA history according to some of you ) to the entire run of the 90s Bulls? Or the 89 Celtics to the entire run of 80s Celtics? Or the 92 Lakers to the entire run of the 80s/early 90s Lakers? Or the 2015 Heat to the run of the Big 3 Heat?

Or are you just being intentionally ignorant?

[Stanley Kobrick]

Roundball_Rock dropping some good knowledge. high bbiq user

[MadDog]

I've said LeBron choked in 11' on ISH from the point he did it onward. I've never made an excuse for him. Yes, legends need to be held accountable when they underachieve--but you guys only do that with 2 small forwards. When a thread is posted to hold Stockton, Ewing, Miller, Malone, etc. to account or they are held accountable within threads? You know what MJ stans do: rush to defend them--and these are people with a lot longer list of "bad" series and moments than the 2 SFs who make you all so insecure.

Who is "you guys"? I have no idea what you're talking about, but I'm only speaking on Jordan/Pippen vs LeBron/Wade. Or the meat and potatoes of your OP. LeBron playing with someone like Prime Wade yet losing with him? Damning. Pairing up with AD and being out-scored/defended is also damning. Not on the surface although if you want to rate him "GOAT" that stuff matters. His flaws might look magnified but thank his fans for that Playing with loaded talent year after year doesn't make you a better player. Far from.

How many accounts is he going to create?

What accounts?

[3ball]

2nd leading scorers vs Pippen


89' 1st Round

Pippen....15.0 on 40%
Nance.... 19.4 on 55%


89' ECF

Pippen'...... 9.7 on 40%
Dumars... 17.6 on 40%


90' ECF

Pippen'..... 16.0 on 42%
Dumars.... 18.6 on 50%


92' ECSF

Pippen... 16.0 on 40%
X-man.... 18.6 on 50%


93' First Round

Pippen......... 15.3 on 39%

Willis............ 18.1 on 48%
Dominique... 30.0 on 44%


94' ECSF

Pippen... 21.7 on 41%
Ewing'.... 22.9 on 53%


95' ECSF

Pippen.......... 16.0 on 51%
L Johnson.... 20.8 on 47%


96' ECSF*

Pippen... 15.6 on 33%

Oakley.... 13.4 on 50%
Starks'.... 13.8 on 38%


96' ECF

Pippen... 18.5 on 45%
Penny''... 25.5 on 47%


96' Finals

Pippen... 15.7 on 34%
Kemp..... 23.3 on 50%


97' 1st Rd

Pippen'.... 16.7 on 39%
Howard... 18.7 on 46%


98' ECF*

Pippen..... 16.6 on 39%
Smits....... 16.3 on 55%




TLDR: Pippen was outscored in 10 of 33 playoff series from 89' to 98', or 30.1% of series..

This excludes his rookie year..

It also excludes the 98' ECF and 96' ECSF (asterisked above) where pippen had medieval efficiency and was clearly outplayed, despite scoring a few tenths higher.. When we include these series where his scoring was matched with far greater efficiency, it becomes clear that pippen was outplayed a lot more than just 30%

*** But if pippen is still outplaying the opposing 2nd option 60 to 70% of the time, then why did MJ have to score goat amounts? ***

It's because the Bulls had no 3rd option and they got destroyed at the 3rd and 4th spots, especially in the 91-93' Finals.. Guys like Vlade and Perkins were both getting 17/9 and destroying Horace in the 91' Finals.. or Kersey and Buck Williams in the 92' Finals... Or Dumas and Majerle in 93'... The 2nd three-peat was worse with Rodman..

Ultimately, the Bulls were a 1-man team offensively and Jordan won 6 carry-job rings - no one ever scored a higher proportion of his team's points

[Roundball_Rock]

Roundball_Rock dropping some good knowledge. high bbiq user

It’s clearly for the entire game score, both teams included. There’s no way Jordan and Lebron’s game score shares were 60%-70% of their teams total.

Yeah, good catch. That makes it an even getter gauge, to the extent GS tells us something. It certainly is a better metric than simply looking at PPG.

I’ve rarely ever heard anyone say Lebron should be 10-0 or won 7-8 finals even on this board

Good question. What do the "4-6" mafia think his teams' record should be. They never answer that. 4-6 mafia, care to comment?

It doesn’t say nothing but it doesn’t say a lot either because there’s a ton of noise in there and as you yourself said, there’s limited samples of comparable situations.

Have any better metric? The Jordan crowd seems to think the way to gauge team strength is by teammates' jersey sales or something. Bosh being a big name doesn't make his 12/7/1 any more valuable than David West or Carlos Boozer doing the same thing.

You really think it makes sense to apply the 94 Bulls (the most important team performance in NBA history according to some of you ) to the entire run of the 90s Bulls? Or the 89 Celtics to the entire run of 80s Celtics? Or the 92 Lakers to the entire run of the 80s/early 90s Lakers? Or the 2015 Heat to the run of the Big 3 Heat?

Jordan fans themselves are quick to point out the Bulls were 26-12 without Pippen in 98'--somehow that logic doesn't apply to a full season when it comes to MJ.

A lot of people think it makes sense, hence why "55 wins" is a common response to MJ fans' pleas of poverty of help. You guys just don't like it because it is inconvenient, even though you have an obvious answer: they were even better with Jordan. That isn't enough. MJ has to have won with scrubs.

2nd leading scorers vs Pippen

More deception. Let's go through the ways:

*He lists pre-prime years, like 89'.
*He lists a 1st option for 94' (Ewing), trying to tell you he was the 2nd option (Starks was).
*He doesn't grasp FG % is higher for post players who take closer shots, especially relative to perimeter players who take a high volume of threes.

The info was posted earlier. Anyone is free to check it out.

The real question: why are MJ stans afraid to do the same exercise for opposing teams' sidekicks' scoring? There obviously is something they want to conceal.

[guy]

Good question. What do the "4-6" mafia think his teams' record should be. They never answer that. 4-6 mafia, care to comment?

You keep engaging with trolls if you want. Most reasonable people give him a 100% pass for 3-5 titles. You can do the math from there. I’ve given you my logic to why I think 6 is a reasonable expectation.

Have any better metric? The Jordan crowd seems to think the way to gauge team strength is by teammates' jersey sales or something. Bosh being a big name doesn't make his 12/7/1 any more valuable than David West or Carlos Boozer doing the same thing.

Does there need to be? How about watching games, paying attention to the league and seeing how teams evolve over time?

Like seriously, do you really think what happened in 1994 says a whole about 1991 or 1998? You really think the Bulls were that close to a 55 win team without Jordan in 1990? 1991? 1993? 1998? If you do, don’t bother watching games. Just stick to the numbers.

Jordan fans themselves are quick to point out the Bulls were 26-12 without Pippen in 98'--somehow that logic doesn't apply to a full season when it comes to MJ.

I don’t care what “Jordan fans” say. Again I’ll repeat:

You really think it makes sense to apply the 94 Bulls (the most important team performance in NBA history according to some of you ) to the entire run of the 90s Bulls? Or the 89 Celtics to the entire run of 80s Celtics? Or the 92 Lakers to the entire run of the 80s/early 90s Lakers? Or the 2015 Heat to the run of the Big 3 Heat?

A lot of people think it makes sense, hence why "55 wins" is a common response to MJ fans' pleas of poverty of help. You guys just don't like it because it is inconvenient, even though you have an obvious answer: they were even better with Jordan. That isn't enough. MJ has to have won with scrubs.

I hear reasonable fans acknowledge it to point out Jordan had help and didn’t just play with scrubs like some trolls might say. I don’t hear reasonable fans thinking that’s something holds that much weight when defining their whole dynasty and how it evolved over time. I also don’t hear reasonable fans thinking that the Lakers going 42-40 without Magic in 92 has much bearing on Magic’s entire time with the Lakers. That’s mainly you and a bunch of trolls that never watched them play.

[And1AllDay]

Paul George was 3rd for MVP too

It means zero

MJ won 6 rings with a Paul George caliber player, except George had better stats than pippen

against demar deorzans cool

[And1AllDay]

aye whats mikes best ring again? need a good laugh

[MadDog]

aye whats mikes best ring again? need a good laugh

The one Jordan wasn't outscored by his teammate Who are we kidding? That would mean ALL 6 > 2020 LeBron. Errr, I mean AD