Did Jordan ever win a ring with worse help than 2013 LeBron?

[Micku]

He did--it just gets erased because it is MJ. 93' ECF is the best example. Outside of that monster game, he was shooting 35% in the other five. 97' ECF is another.

You right about that!! I keep forgetting about those series. But I wouldn't say it's....like LeBron in 2013 or 2011 tho. It was more like....LeBron 2015 ish. Or pick some Kobe series in the finals? Or maybe like Larry Bird in 1981, but not as bad. Or KD when he went against Memphis in 2014.
But you're right it's under performing by his standards tho.

It can be argued Miami relied on LeBron more--he was their leading scorer and primary facilitator. Their offense sucked without him--Chicago's didn't w/out MJ.

It can. I think it is too.

His offensive stats and plus/minus was among his best year of contributing to his team. The Bulls, imo, were better coached tho. Even though I think Miami was underrated in the coaching department because they had a system running the horns set and bit of the Princeton offense, running off of motion and backdoor cuts. It relied on LeBron to make it work. A lot of high screens, which is like the bread of butter of LeBron and Wade's game. But this can create a lot out off off the ball movement for shooters and/or Wade or LeBron to get in position in the post. Bosh would be normally be the pick guy to potentially kick out to.

Wade possibly could've done it too when healthy, but at this point he changed his game to allow LeBron to flourish more and at the same time he was regressing. I think at this time, LeBron and Chalmbers had the ball mostly in their hands. Wade took a step back. Although I don't have the stats here in 2013, but it continued on in 2014 and you can see that stats there on nba.com. But I don't think it was as good as the triangle or I think had role players who operate under the triangle more smoothly than Miami did.

But MJ had a lot in the offensive load in the 2nd peat still. He was definitely comparable, but in a different way. Dude was just a scoring machine in all the stats we have. Raw, per 36, per 100 poss. Just out of the charts. Lebron fills that all around game though.

Where are you getting this? We don't have detailed plus-minus info until 97', some info from 94' on but what I have seen doesn't break it down by D and O. Only 97' on.

In the 97' playoffs Pippen led them in ORAPM. He was 5th overall, MJ was 16th. https://basketball-analytics.gitlab....6-97/playoffs/

In 98', MJ did--but Pippen was right behind him (MJ was 2nd overall, Pippen 5th). https://basketball-analytics.gitlab....7-98/playoffs/

Is there another version of plus-minus that you have seen that shows what you are saying?

Basketball reference. They have both offensive/defensive plus minus. I know there other plus/minus stats. I remember a while back ppl were talking which one is better or which isn't. They go by different stats. I honestly don't remember conclusion if there was, but the stats cover slightly different things if I can recall. A little bit of the margin of the error with some of the shooting stats, but they go by slightly differently in the field as well as plus/minus. There was 82games, basketball-reference, I think hoopdata. Some guy over here tried to do it too with MJ first 3peat manually.

Better talent in a vacuum sure but against their comp?

Yeah, bit of both. I always consider Miami healthy to be one of the top 2 or 3 talented teams in the league. They problem with them is that they ran through that health issue at the wrong time. They had moments when they were and they played out of this world like an all time great team. Then playoffs hit, then bam. It's a reoccurring thing in LeBron's career pretty much. I'm surprise AD didn't get hurt to the point where he had to sit out. Anyway, I always thought the Thunder was the most talented. Bulls of the 90s were one of the most talented too, but I don't think they were the most talented teams. That was the Lakers in 97 and 98 and the Magic in 96 imo. The Lakers in the late 90s were just immature, didn't have roles defined and needed a better coach. Magic was similar. They needed a better coach.

Injuries piled up for the Bulls' in the second threepeat too. The difference is the Bulls' players did a better job overcoming injuries than the Heats' players did.

Definitely. It's a shame tho. Part of the game, but still a shame.

[MadDog]

Here's your problem. You're trying to elevate LeBron by diminishing Wade's contribution. I understand what you're saying perfectly. What I'm trying to show you is that it didn't matter. The playoffs saw 2/3 opponents being God awful, and a combo in the ECF of Hibbert/PG (young PG on top of that).

The finals Wade shows up and plays well, outplaying the opposition, but that is conveniently ignored.

I'm not the one here trying to prop up MJ and downplay LeBron. You and other Bran stans are doing just that for LeBron in order to put down MJ.

He doesn't even do a good job of that. We all saw what went down. In the 2013 playoffs, Wade had better a better combination of PER/BPM/VORP/WS than ANY OTHER eastern conference "sidekick". You also brought up the finals, well in that series Wade averaged the second most points and third highest GameScore (the second was Tim Duncan). But yeah Wade was "carried" LeBron fans spend all day building narratives, and then when presenting them get quickly shut down

[Roundball_Rock]

You right about that!! I keep forgetting about those series. But I wouldn't say it's....like LeBron in 2013 or 2011 tho. It was more like....LeBron 2015 ish. Or pick some Kobe series in the finals? Or maybe like Larry Bird in 1981, but not as bad. Or KD when he went against Memphis in 2014.

He definitely had less of those series than anyone (except for maybe KAJ?). My point was the MJ story has all those things airbrushed out of it.

Even though I think Miami was underrated in the coaching department because they had a system running the horns set and bit of the Princeton offense, running off of motion and backdoor cuts.

Yeah, and I think the perception of Spo has completely changed after this year. Everyone knew he was better than Brown, Lue, and Blatt but people attributed much of the success to LeBron. Now we know Spo is legit, albeit not PJ but only a few coaches are on that PJ level.

Basketball reference. They have both offensive/defensive plus minus. I know there other plus/minus stats.

Do you mean OBPM and DBPM? The only plus/minus I see is overall but maybe they updated it recently and I missed it.

Yeah, bit of both. I always consider Miami healthy to be one of the top 2 or 3 talented teams in the league.

That is fair.

Definitely. It's a shame tho. Part of the game, but still a shame.

It is one reason dynasties are hard. The RS is 82 games and if you make the finals you are adding 25% or so extra games. These teams did it multiple times. Aging also was a factor. Both Pippen and Wade got injured a lot more once they turned 30.

[Stanley Kobrick]

roundball rock always makes very good points, i learn a lot

[Roundball_Rock]

roundball rock always makes very good points, i learn a lot

[Micku]

Yeah, and I think the perception of Spo has completely changed after this year. Everyone knew he was better than Brown, Lue, and Blatt but people attributed much of the success to LeBron. Now we know Spo is legit, albeit not PJ but only a few coaches are on that PJ level.

Yeah. I always felt Spo got a bad rep post 2012.

But in 2011, I felt the criticism was valid. They had no offense. It was awkward as hell. They just took turns on offense by giving it LeBron and Wade. I remember watching a doc saying they spent all their time on defense, but not on offense. They felt like they had so much talent that it'll just come to them naturally. I had no idea what they were running in 2011. Pre 2011, Spo was okay. I think Wade gave him a lot of credit on improving on his mid range jumper. And just in general how they played the game. But in 09 and 10, it was just give the ball to Wade and get outta the way sometimes lol.

Do you mean OBPM and DBPM? The only plus/minus I see is overall but maybe they updated it recently and I missed it.

Yeah, check it out. I forgot when exactly they added it, but they cover things far. I know there are other sites that had some too, and the stats are a little bit different.

But you get some crazy stats with OBPM and DBPM. Check it out if you are interested. You get see the best OBPM and DBPM of each season, going back to 74.

[Roundball_Rock]

Oh got it. BPM, and its offshoots OBPM and DBPM, aren't actual plus-minus stats. They are estimates of it derived from box scores. RAPM (since 97'), augmented plus-minus (since 94'), RPM from ESPN take actual plus-minus data and they adjust it to give you a better snapshot of the impact of a player beyond "Danny Green was on the court and his team was +20 during that span." Jordan shines through any advanced metric of course. We just don't have it broken down by offense or defense for plus-minus outside of 97' and 98' for him (plus DC but that doesn't tell us anything about the real MJ).

[dankok8]

Honestly I think Jordan definitely worse help in 1997. Bosh and Allen were much better than anyone else not named Jordan and Pippen. Kukoc and Rodman were both hurt and played far beyond their ability. Pippen did more than Wade though so it is debatable. 1998 is debatable too with Pippen's injuries all season and than going AWOL halfway through the Finals.

[Roundball_Rock]

1998 is debatable too with Pippen's injuries all season and than going AWOL halfway through the Finals.

This is a questionable characterization. He got hurt in Game 5. He didn't go "AWOL." He never recovered from that injury, as you know. Pippen was great through 4 games (getting FMVP talk)--which matters because that is when the Bulls accrued 3 of their 4 wins. It is a weird narrative. Jordan carried them in Game 6, Pippen was great in the first four and Kukoc had 30 in Game 5. The narrative tends to be Game 6 is what happened the entire series.

What did Stockton do in that series or the 97' series BTW? He is top 30 all-time. MJ fans criticize the hell out of Pippen but never say a word about Stockton, despite Pippen outplaying him in consecutive finals.

Their defense helped them overcome the issues with Kukoc and co. in 97' and heavy reliance on two players to do 55-60% of the scoring (or whatever the final # was). Who did anything against them on the other side? Malone shed 11% in TS in the finals, Stockton was the 4th best player in the series, Mourning and Hardaway didn't do much in the ECF, Smith and Laettner didn't light the world on fire, etc.

[dankok8]

This is a questionable characterization. He got hurt in Game 5. He didn't go "AWOL." He never recovered from that injury, as you know. Pippen was great through 4 games (getting FMVP talk)--which matters because that is when the Bulls accrued 3 of their 4 wins. It is a weird narrative. Jordan carried them in Game 6, Pippen was great in the first four and Kukoc had 30 in Game 5. The narrative tends to be Game 6 is what happened the entire series.

What did Stockton do in that series or the 97' series BTW? He is top 30 all-time. MJ fans criticize the hell out of Pippen but never say a word about Stockton, despite Pippen outplaying him in consecutive finals.

Their defense helped them overcome the issues with Kukoc and co. in 97' and heavy reliance on two players to do 55-60% of the scoring (or whatever the final # was). Who did anything against them on the other side? Malone shed 11% in TS in the finals, Stockton was the 4th best player in the series, Mourning and Hardaway didn't do much in the ECF, Smith and Laettner didn't light the world on fire, etc.

That's a valid point that opponent's underperforming should be evaluated as well although one can say that for Lebron's competition too. Pacers' star player PG 13 or Playoff P wasn't exactly lighting the world on fire in the 2013 ECF... in fact he almost always underwhelms in the playoffs. Then again to be fair, that Indy team was REALLY GOOD defensively on par with the 1997 Heat. I might even categorize them as historically good on defense.

[Micku]

Oh got it. BPM, and its offshoots OBPM and DBPM, aren't actual plus-minus stats. They are estimates of it derived from box scores. RAPM (since 97'), augmented plus-minus (since 94'), RPM from ESPN take actual plus-minus data and they adjust it to give you a better snapshot of the impact of a player beyond "Danny Green was on the court and his team was +20 during that span." Jordan shines through any advanced metric of course. We just don't have it broken down by offense or defense for plus-minus outside of 97' and 98' for him (plus DC but that doesn't tell us anything about the real MJ).

I never looked it up to see if it go strictly play by play. I know there are various of stats. PIPM, RPM, OBPM, DBPM, RAPM, and VORP. Each one is a little different, so you would have to put things into context. Espn uses RPM is RAPM blended with some box score stats. I think goes play by play? Adjusted with the team. But it only goes back to 2013-14 season. I think 82games used to do raw plus/minus. I forgot which site uses PIPM. Basketballreference use VORP and their new of BPM 2.0.

They all have reference to some degree and show you what the players that matter to their team. And it seems pretty accurate to the eye test as well. But there probably are flaws to almost everything if you use it in the wrong context.

[Roundball_Rock]

That's a valid point that opponent's underperforming should be evaluated as well although one can say that for Lebron's competition too. Pacers' star player PG 13 or Playoff P wasn't exactly lighting the world on fire in the 2013 ECF... in fact he almost always underwhelms in the playoffs. Then again to be fair, that Indy team was REALLY GOOD defensively on par with the 1997 Heat. I might even categorize them as historically good on defense.

Yeah, the Pacers' defense was their calling card. Like the 90's Knicks, their problem was their offense. These teams would have won chips if they had decent offenses along with their #1 defenses. They didn't have to be the 17' Warriors, just competent enough to get baskets down the stretch in big games. Neither were (you have to wonder if the Knicks kept Mark Jackson would that have been different?).

Hibbert was excellent in the ECF. People forget it since he did little in 14' and disappeared shortly after that as the game changed but Hibbert was the main reason the Pacers overperformed (if we are talking individual players--so Hibbert plus the elite defense).

[Micku]

That's a valid point that opponent's underperforming should be evaluated as well although one can say that for Lebron's competition too. Pacers' star player PG 13 or Playoff P wasn't exactly lighting the world on fire in the 2013 ECF... in fact he almost always underwhelms in the playoffs. Then again to be fair, that Indy team was REALLY GOOD defensively on par with the 1997 Heat. I might even categorize them as historically good on defense.

I feel like the defense on itself shouldn't be used across eras as a legit comparison because of the different rules and strategies and what they could do and how offense are run. They are so many factors to consider, and you'll get weird results. But I think both you and roundball_Rock are right about the defense of the Pacers. They were really really good. It carried them. And Roy Hibbert became old Kareem everytime when he faced the Heat in the playoffs in 13. I felt that was the biggest mismatch. He was the reason why the Heat had so much trouble.

[Roundball_Rock]

I feel like the defense on itself shouldn't be used across eras as a legit comparison because of the different rules and strategies and what they could do and how offense are run. They are so many factors to consider, and you'll get weird results. But I think both you and roundball_Rock are right about the defense of the Pacers. They were really really good. It carried them. And Roy Hibbert became old Kareem everytime when he faced the Heat in the playoffs in 13. I felt that was the biggest mismatch. He was the reason why the Heat had so much trouble.

Is there any career like Hibbert's? He was the best player not named LeBron on the floor in an ECF that had Wade, Bosh, and George in it in 13'. He made his second all-star team in 14'. Two years later he was a 6/5/1 player in LA. He played one more season (5/3/0) and was out the NBA at age 30. The ground completely shifted under him almost overnight (Pero Antic) and he went from productive player on a good team to useless.