Jordan won 6 rings in a weak 22-27 team league, half were expansion.

[BigKobeFan]

You virgins need to talk about something else. Its the same shit every day.

[HoopsNY]

Expansion had an impact, just look at rosters of top teams in 1985 and compare to 1996.

The Bulls' benefited because they were the only team with two MVP caliber players for the entire run and then they added a 3rd HOF player. No other team had two MVP caliber players (other than Orlando for two years). Houston had 3 HOF in 97', 98'--but all were past their primes (Pippen was still in his prime while Jordan wasn't but remained the best player).

More deception from TheFakeBullsFan. When playing together, Pippen finished top ten in MVP voting four times. Let's take a look at year by year for their entire tenure together (minus rookie Pippen), with other top 10 vote getters of the same team, including the 90s.

1989
Malone - 3rd
Stockton - 7th

K. Johnson - 8th
Chambers - 9th

1990
Malone - 4th
Stockton - 9th

1991
Drexler - 4th
Porter - 9th

1992
Mullin - 6th
Hardaway - 8th

1993
Price - 8th
Daughtery - 10th

1995
Malone - 3rd
Stockton - 8th

Shaq - 2nd
Penny - 10th

1996
Kemp - 6th
Payton - 8th

Penny - 3rd
Shaq- 9th

1997
Rice - 5th
Mason - 9th

1998
Duncan - 5th
Robinson - 7th

Payton - 3rd
Baker - 8th

If the retort is MJ was usually at the top, then that's a credit to MJ. Pippen finished top 5 alongside MJ once.

Watch TheFakeBullsFan make another essay post where he completely sidesteps the the reality of what he just said.

[dankok8]

The 90's were really weaker than the 80's. It would be foolish to say otherwise but part of that weakness also comes from the Bulls' strength. There is a lot of result bias. For example, if the Bulls lost some of those Finals to the Blazers/Suns/Sonics, good chance some guys like Terry Porter, Buck Williams, Kevin Johnson, Shawn Kemp, Jeff Hornacek would have made the HOF. This whole argument could only work against Jordan if his teams were extraordinarily stacked relative to his era like the Warriors in 2018 with 4 HOFers in their primes playing 1 HOFer opponents but they weren't. The Bulls were talented but the 1st threepeat Bulls only had 2 HOFers and 2nd threepeat Bulls had 3 HOFers of which one of them (Rodman) is far from first ballot. 1991 Pistons had 3 HOFers, 1991 Lakers had 3 HOFers, 1997 and 1998 Jazz had 2 HOFers and 1995 Rockets had 2 HOFers. And we could and will see more players from the 90's still make it into the hall.

[HoopsNY]

The 90's were really weaker than the 80's. It would be foolish to say otherwise but part of that weakness also comes from the Bulls' strength. There is a lot of result bias. For example, if the Bulls lost some of those Finals to the Blazers/Suns/Sonics, good chance some guys like Terry Porter, Buck Williams, Kevin Johnson, Shawn Kemp, Jeff Hornacek would have made the HOF. This whole argument could only work against Jordan if his teams were extraordinarily stacked relative to his era like the Warriors in 2018 with 4 HOFers in their primes playing 1 HOFer opponents but they weren't. The Bulls were talented but the 1st threepeat Bulls only had 2 HOFers and 2nd threepeat Bulls had 3 HOFers of which one of them (Rodman) is far from first ballot. 1991 Pistons had 3 HOFers, 1991 Lakers had 3 HOFers, 1997 and 1998 Jazz had 2 HOFers and 1995 Rockets had 2 HOFers. And we could and will see more players from the 90's still make it into the hall.

The HOF argument is silly. What matters is how well those players played at the time they were playing. A lot of the guys MJ faced on those teams were on elite teams with a ton of talent, but had unfortunate circumstances which resulted in their careers being shortened. If not for that, they would likely all be in the HOF. Yet MJ gets persecuted as if that's his fault.

Guys like Reggie Lewis and Drazen Petrovic died. As unfortunate as those deaths were, both of those guys were shaping up to be elite players capable of doing great things. And that Nets team together with Coleman and Anderson would have been a threat for years to come.

Daughtery, Cummings, Rice, KJ, Penny, Kemp, LJ, and Harper all had shortened careers due to injuries, cocaine, or whatever. To pit the blame on MJ as if he controlled where they ended up is unfair.

Not to mention, the discussion isn't apples to apples. Over a 15 year span, LeBron played in 45 playoff series to MJ's 37. Law of probabilities tells us that it's more likely that LeBron would have faced more HOF'ers anyway, especially in an era of colluding.

But even if we concede to this point, it doesn't override all of the other arguments in favor of MJ.

[Roundball_Rock]

The 90's were really weaker than the 80's. It would be foolish to say otherwise but part of that weakness also comes from the Bulls' strength.

Look at the other thread on the 80's. As someone noted, if you didn't have 3 surefire HOF players you weren't winning then (and these teams often had a 4th or even 5th borderline HOFer). Compare those rosters to the 90's. The 94' Rockets won with Otis Thorpe as their second best player against a team whose second best player was John Starks.

good chance some guys like Terry Porter, Buck Williams, Kevin Johnson, Shawn Kemp, Jeff Hornacek would have made the HOF

Maybe KJ and Kemp but no way the other guys make it. Hornacek was a 1x all-star, Porter 2x, Williams 3x. Only Williams was all-NBA, and I believe only once 8-9 years before the 92' finals.

How important are rings? Iggy has 3, won a FMVP, team USA member, and is a 1x all-star. He has a more impressive resume in these areas than Hornacek. Other than some LeBron stans, I don't see anyone calling Iggy a HOFer.

Or look at MJ's teams. Grant, BJ, Cartwright made as many all-star teams as Hornacek and have at least 3 rings (Grant has 4). Are they HOF?

This whole argument could only work against Jordan if his teams were extraordinarily stacked relative to his era like the Warriors in 2018 with 4 HOFers in their primes playing 1 HOFer opponents but they weren't. The Bulls were talented but the 1st threepeat Bulls only had 2 HOFers and 2nd threepeat Bulls had 3 HOFers of which one of them (Rodman) is far from first ballot. 1991 Pistons had 3 HOFers, 1991 Lakers had 3 HOFers, 1997 and 1998 Jazz had 2 HOFers and 1995 Rockets had 2 HOFers

You are underselling their advantage. Look at "only" 2 HOFers. How many did the comp have? You listed the Lakers but you know Divac was a 1x all-star (10 years later) and is in the HOF for his international play. That would be akin to Kukoc making the HOF.

You looked and found only a handful of other teams with multiple HOFers. Let's look at the Bulls versus their Finals and ECF opponents.

1991 ECF: Bulls 2 vs. 3 for DET
1991 Finals: 2 vs. 3 for LAL, with the caveat above
1992 ECF: 2 vs. 0 for CLE
1992 Finals: 2 vs. 1 for POR
1993 ECF: 2 vs. 1 for NY
1993 Finals: 2 vs. 1 for PHX
1996 ECF: 3 vs. 1 for ORL
1996 Finals: 3 vs. 1 for SEA
1997 ECF: 4 vs. 1 for MIA
1997 Finals: 4 vs. 2 for UTA
1998 ECF: 3 vs. 2 for IND
1998 Finals: 3 vs. 2 for IND

Parish shouldn't count for 97' since he rode the CHI bench but Mullin wasn't a HOF player in 98' for IND either. He was their 5th best player.

Any way you slice it, the Bulls consistently have the edge after 91'...in literally none of these series after 91' does any team equal them.

Moreover, you noted in the Rodman reference that not all HOF players are equal (Rodman was in decline by the end of the run but the same can be said of Stockton, who was more like 11' Kidd in 98' than the Stockton we hear about). How many of these players were all-NBA 1st team caliber players? DET had 1, LAL had 1, CLE had 1, POR had 1, PHX had 1, NY had 1, ORL had 2, SEA had 1, MIA had 2, UTA had 2. MVP caliber (let's define that by being top 5 at some point)? DET 1, LAL 1, CLE 0, POR 1, PHX 1, NY 1, ORL 2, SEA 1, MIA 2, UTA 1. Now consider the "number" for the Bulls would be 2 in each case.

When you look at MVP level or all-NBA 1st teams the gap closes a bit but the Bulls still have an obvious edge.

One frequent response from the MJ crowd is we have to look at teams since it is not all about stars (except for LeBron's teams ). The answer there is 55 wins. No other team from that era could lose its best player 3 weeks before the season and contend for the #1 seed.

The Bulls went 72-10 with MJ. What do MJ fans think would happen sans MJ? 42-40? 37-45? Was MJ worth 30-35 wins? You would have to think something like that to think the team isn't stacked because any team that can win 55+ or even 50+ without its best player is a stacked/elite "cast."

[TheCorporation]

Charles Barkley, 1994:

"The league has deteriorated. You have bad general managers drafting bad players. It's like the NFL. The older players are moving on, and the younger ones aren't there yet. You look at some of the guys starting in this league these days and it makes you shake your head."

Dennis Rodman, 1997:

"We could not have won 70 games playing against 1980's teams."

Larry Bird, 1996:

"I think the expansion teams have really hurt the league, I think it's depleted the talent in our league."

Bob Costas, 1996:

"Dr. J had Larry and Magic to test himself against, there's nothing comparable to that quality of competition at the top for these Chicago Bulls. So it seems a little awkward to talk about the Bulls as one of the best teams of all time."

1983 Sixers - 3 hall of famers - Malone, Irving, Cheeks
1984 Celtics - 4 hall of famers - Bird, Parrish, McHale, Johnson
1985 Lakers - 5 hall of famers - Magic, Kareem, Worthy, McAdoo, Wilkes
1989 Pistons - 4 hall of famers - Thomas, Dumars, Rodman, Dantley

1996 Sonics - 1 hall of famer - Payton
1993 Knicks - 1 hall of famer - Ewing
1992 Blazers - 1 hall of famer - Drexler
1993 Suns - 1 hall of famer - Barkley
1996 Magic - 1 hall of famer - Shaq

2007 Spurs - 3 hall of famers - Duncan, Parker, Ginobili
2010 Celtics - 3 hall of famers - Garnett, Allen, Pierce
2014 Spurs - 4 hall of famers - Duncan, Parker, Ginobili, Leonard
2016 Warriors - 4 hall of famers - Curry, Thompson, Green, Igoudala
2017 Warriors - 5 hall of famers - Curry, Thompson, Green, Igoudala, Durant

Wrap it up

[TheGoatest]

A 30 team league today mops the floor with a 30 team league in the 90s, because of the development of international players.
The worst teams in the league today are so much better than the worst teams in the 90s, it's not even funny.

[Hey Yo]

The HOF argument is silly. What matters is how well those players played at the time they were playing. A lot of the guys MJ faced on those teams were on elite teams with a ton of talent, but had unfortunate circumstances which resulted in their careers being shortened. If not for that, they would likely all be in the HOF. Yet MJ gets persecuted as if that's his fault.

Guys like Reggie Lewis and Drazen Petrovic died. As unfortunate as those deaths were, both of those guys were shaping up to be elite players capable of doing great things. And that Nets team together with Coleman and Anderson would have been a threat for years to come.

Daughtery, Cummings, Rice, KJ, Penny, Kemp, LJ, and Harper all had shortened careers due to injuries, cocaine, or whatever. To pit the blame on MJ as if he controlled where they ended up is unfair.

Not to mention, the discussion isn't apples to apples. Over a 15 year span, LeBron played in 45 playoff series to MJ's 37. Law of probabilities tells us that it's more likely that LeBron would have faced more HOF'ers anyway, especially in an era of colluding.

But even if we concede to this point, it doesn't override all of the other arguments in favor of MJ.

Totally agree...

Like how people always say "look what dude avg. last year, he's a superstar!!!!"

I don't give a shit what dude avg. last year for another team, I only care about what he averages this season, on said team. Base a player on how he's performing currently, not what he did last year. Last years stats can't help me win this year.

[MadDog]

Let's take a look at year by year for their entire tenure together (minus rookie Pippen), with other top 10 vote getters of the same team, including the 90s.

1989

Malone - 3rd

Stockton - 7th

K. Johnson - 8th

Chambers - 9th

1990

Malone - 4th

Stockton - 9th

1991

Drexler - 4th

Porter - 9th

1992

Mullin - 6th

Hardaway - 8th

1993

Price - 8th

Daughtery - 10th

1995

Malone - 3rd

Stockton - 8th

Shaq - 2nd

Penny - 10th

1996

Kemp - 6th

Payton - 8th

Penny - 3rd

Shaq- 9th

1997

Rice - 5th

Mason - 9th

1998

Duncan - 5th

Robinson - 7th

Payton - 3rd

Baker – 8th

Results don’t lie. The 90s were stacked. Paired up with one of the best PFs, if not the best, and Stockton was STILL an MVP candidate Same thing with Penny and Shaq. While they were also in contention for the award, Shaq was already named a Top 50 player in his 5th year!

Not to mention, the discussion isn't apples to apples. Over a 15 year span, LeBron played in 45 playoff series to MJ's 37. Law of probabilities tells us that it's more likely that LeBron would have faced more HOF'ers anyway

Not only that, but the eastern conference was a shit show in LeBron’s era. Both in talent and because LeBron cowardly teamed with the best talent Below are the list of HOFers LeBron has played with

Wade (5 Seasons)
Bosh (4 Seasons)
Irving (4 Seasons)
Love (4 Seasons)
Shaq (1 Season)
AD (1 Season
Howard (1 Season)

Even if you don’t want to list Love as a HOFer, LeBron has still played with FAR MORE of them than Jordan. The argument should ALWAYS be how good the player was at their best. If LeBron fans want to use the HOFer argument, though, read and weep

[HoopsNY]

Results don’t lie. The 90s were stacked. Paired up with one of the best PFs, if not the best, and Stockton was STILL an MVP candidate Same thing with Penny and Shaq. While they were also in contention for the award, Shaq was already named a Top 50 player in his 5th year!



Not only that, but the eastern conference was a shit show in LeBron’s era. Both in talent and because LeBron cowardly teamed with the best talent Below are the list of HOFers LeBron has played with

Wade (5 Seasons)
Bosh (4 Seasons)
Irving (4 Seasons)
Love (4 Seasons)
Shaq (1 Season)
AD (1 Season
Howard (1 Season)

Even if you don’t want to list Love as a HOFer, LeBron has still played with FAR MORE of them than Jordan. The argument should ALWAYS be how good the player was at their best. If LeBron fans want to use the HOFer argument, though, read and weep

I don't believe the 90s were stacked. But this incessant attempt at devaluing the competition has to stop, to the point that now supposedly, there weren't numerous teams with multiple MVP candidates/level players in the 90s.

This is why I say most of these arguments work well when they do and not so well when they don't. It's just non-sensical to always hinge your entire argument on things that generally work some of the time but not others.

[FKAri]

Not to mention MJ had a miniscule testicles.

[2ball]

90’s Ball:

[Roundball_Rock]

Totally agree...

Like how people always say "look what dude avg. last year, he's a superstar!!!!"

I don't give a shit what dude avg. last year for another team, I only care about what he averages this season, on said team. Base a player on how he's performing currently, not what he did last year. Last years stats can't help me win this year.

One way to do that is to look at all-NBA players in given years--we can't define "HOF level" in a given year. They won't do that because they know Jordan's teams have the 11-9 edge in the finals by the measure and LeBron's have a 14-18 deficit.

There are roughly the same # of people in each era who looked like they would make the HOF but didn't or won't (others in this thread--not you--want to pretend that only applies to when MJ played but magically not to when LJ did). Rajon Rondo was considered a future HOF player in the early 2010's. No one even remembers that. For injuries, we always hear about Penny, Hill, KJ, Price, etc. (Kemp got fat--that isn't an "injury") but you have Rose, Arenas, Roy, Yao, D-Will, Amare (a better version of Kemp--no tears for him), Rondo, Noah as people from this era. Griffin, Love may not make it either (resumes are similar to Kemp's, except Griffin was once a MVP candidate). They just don't have the 90's nostalgia going for them.

Some of it is shady accounting. Terry Cummings made 2 all-star teams in an 8-9 year prime. We are hearing he was going to be a HOFer.

We also are seeing "MVP candidate" defined down as anyone who get MVP votes because they know what that data would show. By that logic, Rodman was a MVP candidate 4x--which explodes the entire point of their spin.

Paired up with one of the best PFs, if not the best, and Stockton was STILL an MVP candidate

Stockton was never a MVP candidate. That he was never a MVP candidate is used against him by people like Bill Simmons because he is the only top 40 all-time player to never be. He got a few 4th or 5th place votes in some years, like a lot of players do. Here is his "highest" finish:

1988-89 1st 2nd 3rd 4th 5th Tot

[22May89] (10) (7) (5) (3) (1) Pts

Magic Johnson (LAL) ..... 42.5 664.5
Michael Jordan (CHI) .... 27.5 598.8
Karl Malone (UTA) ....... 5 362
Patrick Ewing (NYK) ..... 8 200
Hakeem Olajuwon (HOU) ... 2 179.3
Charles Barkley (PHI) ... 0 94.3
John Stockton (UTA) ..... 0 28
Kevin Johnson (PHO) ..... 0 22
Tom Chambers (PHO) ...... 0 20
Mark Price (CLE) ........ 0 18

Same with 90% the other players Chewbacca referenced. 9th place in MVP is not being a MVP candidate. Let's hone in on 96':

1996

Kemp - 6th

Payton - 8th

Penny - 3rd

Shaq- 9th

1995-96 1st 2nd 3rd 4th 5th Tot

[20May96] (10) (7) (5) (3) (1) Pts

Michael Jordan (CHI) .... 109 3 0 1 0 1114
David Robinson (SAN) .... 0 54 29 14 9 574
Anfernee Hardaway (ORL) . 2 21 23 19 21 360
Hakeem Olajuwon (HOU) ... 1 1 9 18 20 238
Scottie Pippen (CHI) .... 0 11 18 14 17 226
Gary Payton (SEA) ....... 0 7 0 13 10 98
Karl Malone (UTA) ....... 1 0 8 7 14 85
Shawn Kemp (SEA) ........ 0 3 6 7 1 73
Grant Hill (DET) ........ 0 2 5 5 9 63
Shaquille O'Neal (ORL) .. 0 2 4 7 8 63
John Stockton (UTA) ..... 0 1 1 0 0 12
Charles Barkley (PHO) ... 0 0 0 2 2 8
Earvin Johnson (LAL) .... 0 0 0 1 5 8
Alonzo Mourning (MIA) ... 0 0 1 0 1 6
Dennis Rodman (CHI) ..... 0 0 0 1 1 4
Terrell Brandon (CLE) ... 0 0 0 1 0 3
Mitch Richmond (SAC) .... 0 0 0 1 0 3

Using the logic put forward here, the Bulls had 3 MVP "candidates" in 96'. Damn.

[ImKobe]

When did MJ win a title in a 22-team league?

[HoopsNY]

For injuries, we always hear about Penny, Hill, KJ, Price, etc. (Kemp got fat--that isn't an "injury") but you have Rose, Arenas, Roy, Yao, D-Will, Amare (a better version of Kemp--no tears for him), Rondo, Noah as people from this era. Griffin, Love may not make it either (resumes are similar to Kemp's, except Griffin was once a MVP candidate). They just don't have the 90's nostalgia going for them.

This is essentially the problem. The arguments work when they work and don't work when they don't work, depending on who is using them. What you fail to realize is that I'm not trying to use this line of argumentation, on either side, period.

You're correct in your assumption. Many of those whom you mention would have probably made, or would probably make, the HOF. The problem with this argument is that while it lines up with some of the guys from the 90s, LeBron didn't face some of the guys mentioned by you in the playoffs (kinda like MJ didn't and some of the guys from the 90s). And if he did, they weren't at their best.

Guys like Penny, Cummings, KJ, Price, Daughtery, Harper, and Kemp were at their best, so the comparison isn't entirely apples to apples. Furthermore Kemp getting fat and being on cocaine shouldn't be MJ's problem.

I'm just gonna say this, MJ played on teams where there were advantages in HOF numbers, but the same can be said for LeBron. Why either side would use this argument is beyond me. It's silly, and I think even you can agree on that. What matters is how the players were when they played in that given year. HOF is a cumulative accomplishment. That's it.

Some of it is shady accounting. Terry Cummings made 2 all-star teams in an 8-9 year prime. We are hearing he was going to be a HOFer.

Yea, you're right. I'm not saying he was guaranteed, but at least provide a little bit of context. After being traded from Milwaukee, Cummings goes to San Antonio and teams up with a young David Robinson.

The Spurs were a 21 win team the year prior and many people think that it was all because of Robinson. It wasn't. Cummings was added and put up 22/8 on 48%. The Spurs became an immediate contender and won 56 games (the most in franchise history up to that point).

The following season they won 55 games. Injuries started to creep in and by 1992, Cummings went down with a career ending injury at the age of 30.

It's not inconceivable to think that together, Robinson-Elliot-Cummings could have made deeper playoff runs and potentially won a championship together.

In 1992, Robinson went down and missed the last 14 games (Spurs won 47 games that year), but Cummings filled in nicely. He averaged 25 PPG and 13 Rebounds on 49% shooting in the final stretch. In the 1st round knockout, Cummings put up 26/11 on 52%.

Look, even if you don't want to think his career and tandem with Robinson could have led to the HOF had he not blown out his knees, then the point still retraces back to my original claim - what matters is what those guys did at the time.

RS '84-'85: 24/9 on 50%, All-Star, All-NBA
Playoffs '84-'85: 28/9/3/2 on 58%

That doesn't look like an elite season to you?