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  1. #31
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    Default Re: Pippen put up 1/2 (.5) career assists per game more than ball hog Kobe.

    Quote Originally Posted by HoopsNY View Post
    How does that make Pippen a bad playmaker, though? It certainly doesn't speak to the Kobe/Pippen debate where playmaking is concerned. Kobe wasn't the playmaker Pippen was.
    Who said it made him a "bad" playmaker? Again, I'm addressing the OP's line where Magic was mentioned. Like Magic, Stockton is brought up vs Pippen. Ad nauseam. We are being told to ignore Stockton's assists and focus on his PPG, but with Pippen, the exact opposite. Shit doesn't make sense.

  2. #32
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    Default Re: Pippen put up 1/2 (.5) career assists per game more than ball hog Kobe.

    Quote Originally Posted by Axe View Post
    Kobe was obviously a ballhogger during his younger days because he wanted to be the 'next mj'. So scoring became his forte ofc, all the more when he thinks that's the way he would flashy everytime he's in the floor. But overall, pip was a better player outside of scoring, especially when it came to defensive capabilities. He must not be forgotten just because he doesn't have mvps nor fmvps.
    No that's fair. The status given to Pippen on this forum by MJ fans is beyond ridiculous. He's one of the THE greatest players of all-time. And not top 50, more like top 25.

  3. #33
    SATAN is a prick Axe's Avatar
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    Default Re: Pippen put up 1/2 (.5) career assists per game more than ball hog Kobe.

    Quote Originally Posted by HoopsNY View Post
    No that's fair. The status given to Pippen on this forum by MJ fans is beyond ridiculous. He's one of the THE greatest players of all-time. And not top 50, more like top 25.
    They treat pippen as if he was never a winner at all lmao. The bulls dynasty isn't complete without him.

  4. #34
    I don't get picked last at the park anymore
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    Default Re: Pippen put up 1/2 (.5) career assists per game more than ball hog Kobe.

    Quote Originally Posted by HoopsNY View Post
    No that's fair. The status given to Pippen on this forum by MJ fans is beyond ridiculous. He's one of the THE greatest players of all-time. And not top 50, more like top 25.
    Imagine Pippen's career without Jordan and on what basis would you have him that high? BTW, I only used Kobe because of his reputation as a ball hog and he played in the triangle, right? I could have easily used somebody like Clyde who had a similar usage and played for Rick Adelman in Portland. That was in Adelman's pre-Princeton offense days (a similar read-react offense to the triangle), but Adelman even then liked to run sets where he allowed Clyde to moonlight as facilitator in the offense, so you go from 90, 91 & 92 when Clyde almost had Portland in three straight Finals, and he was putting up 15 percent more assists per 100 on almost exact same usage as Pippen. So, like Kobe, there you have Clyde who nobody really thinks of as "playmaker...," but Pippen is somehow an all-time great one? Come on... It's just ridiculous the way people talk about Pippen like he's Magic or even a guy capable of taking over pg full time. He wasn't.

  5. #35
    NBA sixth man of the year Micku's Avatar
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    Default Re: Pippen put up 1/2 (.5) career assists per game more than ball hog Kobe.

    Quote Originally Posted by HoopsNY View Post
    No that's fair. The status given to Pippen on this forum by MJ fans is beyond ridiculous. He's one of the THE greatest players of all-time. And not top 50, more like top 25.
    You think? Not too sure if he is anymore given KD and Curry and all. Would you have Pippen over Wade?

    Granted for me personally, I don't like the setting the numbers. I prefer them by tiers.

  6. #36
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    Default Re: Pippen put up 1/2 (.5) career assists per game more than ball hog Kobe.

    Quote Originally Posted by goozeman View Post
    Imagine Pippen's career without Jordan and on what basis would you have him that high? BTW, I only used Kobe because of his reputation as a ball hog and he played in the triangle, right? I could have easily used somebody like Clyde who had a similar usage and played for Rick Adelman in Portland. That was in Adelman's pre-Princeton offense days (a similar read-react offense to the triangle), but Adelman even then liked to run sets where he allowed Clyde to moonlight as facilitator in the offense, so you go from 90, 91 & 92 when Clyde almost had Portland in three straight Finals, and he was putting up 15 percent more assists per 100 on almost exact same usage as Pippen. So, like Kobe, there you have Clyde who nobody really thinks of as "playmaker...," but Pippen is somehow an all-time great one? Come on... It's just ridiculous the way people talk about Pippen like he's Magic or even a guy capable of taking over pg full time. He wasn't.
    The difference is Pippen could do all of those things but was a far greater defensive player than Clyde. And Pippen's defense was a pivotal part of Chicago's success. Pippen is one of the greatest perimeter defenders, ever. Clyde simply wasn't.

    Also, the assumption is that Chicago wouldn't have a #2 to compliment Pippen had Jordan not been there for any of those years than Pippen was. We already saw Chicago win 55 games in 1993-94; if they add a reasonable #2 option (18-20 PPG), then I think it's safe to say they win at least one championship during Pippen's career.

  7. #37
    9x All Defensive 1st And1AllDay's Avatar
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    Default Re: Pippen put up 1/2 (.5) career assists per game more than ball hog Kobe.

    quiet down op


  8. #38
    SATAN is a prick Axe's Avatar
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    Default Re: Pippen put up 1/2 (.5) career assists per game more than ball hog Kobe.

    Quote Originally Posted by HoopsNY View Post
    The difference is Pippen could do all of those things but was a far greater defensive player than Clyde. And Pippen's defense was a pivotal part of Chicago's success. Pippen is one of the greatest perimeter defenders, ever. Clyde simply wasn't.

    Also, the assumption is that Chicago wouldn't have a #2 to compliment Pippen had Jordan not been there for any of those years than Pippen was. We already saw Chicago win 55 games in 1993-94; if they add a reasonable #2 option (18-20 PPG), then I think it's safe to say they win at least one championship during Pippen's career.
    On top of that, pippen never missed the playoffs until his farewell season in which he came back to the bulls.

  9. #39
    I don't get picked last at the park anymore
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    Default Re: Pippen put up 1/2 (.5) career assists per game more than ball hog Kobe.

    Quote Originally Posted by HoopsNY View Post
    The difference is Pippen could do all of those things but was a far greater defensive player than Clyde. And Pippen's defense was a pivotal part of Chicago's success. Pippen is one of the greatest perimeter defenders, ever. Clyde simply wasn't.

    Also, the assumption is that Chicago wouldn't have a #2 to compliment Pippen had Jordan not been there for any of those years than Pippen was. We already saw Chicago win 55 games in 1993-94; if they add a reasonable #2 option (18-20 PPG), then I think it's safe to say they win at least one championship during Pippen's career.
    You are just completely overrating individual defense. Sorry, basketball doesn't work that way. Team defense trumps all. Clyde is the same size as Pippen and a better athlete. He could easily slide to SF next to Jordan, Grant, Harper, Rodman (all HOF/great defenders) and Chicago would have utterly trounced the league with two alpha dog scorers like Drex and Jordan running things and still had an all-time great defense. In fact, Chicago would have become a super team at that point and it would have been bad for the league. Drexler is a significant upgrade in every area except man defense, especially as an iso scorer. Being a great man defender doesn't have the cache you think it does, and certainly doesn't move the needle nearly as much how GM's construct rosters.

    As far as Pippen winning in Chicago, the only way the win anything is if the signed a bonefide first option like Drexler, but then it wouldn't be Pippen's team... The only roster in the last 30 years that has captured a championship with anything close to the construction of the Bulls with a Pippen-level perimeter scorer as their 1st option is Detroit.

  10. #40
    NBA sixth man of the year Micku's Avatar
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    Default Re: Pippen put up 1/2 (.5) career assists per game more than ball hog Kobe.

    Quote Originally Posted by HoopsNY View Post
    The difference is Pippen could do all of those things but was a far greater defensive player than Clyde. And Pippen's defense was a pivotal part of Chicago's success. Pippen is one of the greatest perimeter defenders, ever. Clyde simply wasn't.

    Also, the assumption is that Chicago wouldn't have a #2 to compliment Pippen had Jordan not been there for any of those years than Pippen was. We already saw Chicago win 55 games in 1993-94; if they add a reasonable #2 option (18-20 PPG), then I think it's safe to say they win at least one championship during Pippen's career.
    I don't know about that. But it's by year to year basis. You guys like Shaq who had crazy on talent on his team too. Penny, Grant, Nick Anderson, Dennis Scout, they couldn't get it done. I don't think they would've done it in the early 90s. I don't think they were good enough.

    Although 92 would be interesting. Although it's hard to believe them getting pass the Knicks w/o a guy like MJ too that year. And Portland was stacked of talent, so it would've been interesting. Clyde would have more of a filed day tho. Unless Pippen guard him all the time. But there were times where MJ would better job and vice versa on different opponents. MJ did a great job on him that series.

    But 93? I don't think so. Knicks was great. Suns of 93 was one of best teams not to win it. MJ average 40.

    94 was probably their best year. Pippen was pretty much at his peak. If they would've gain some sort of second option then yeah. They probably would've gone to the finals. I dunno if they would beat the Rockets. And before the Rockets, they would still have to face the pacers.

    But not to say it's not impossible. I believe the Bulls given the right pieces could've been similar to the Pistons in a way. Slow pacing, great defense, and great team game to overcome their opponents. And Pippen would be the major piece to make that engine go. But at the same token, the Bulls and Pippen weren't the same every year. It honestly depends on who they get.

    Maybe a guy like Joe Dumars or Mitch Richmond. But in general, I dunno. And the box plus/minus of MJ was super crazy back then in 88-93, so it's hard to replace. Like seriously only like select players even compare both RS and playoffs. Like historically great. Like he's like number 2 in the playoffs, behind LeBron in 09 compared to him in 91? However that doesn't always translate wins. But even in the late 90s, you'll see Pippen and MJ opponent fg%, right? It's virtually the same. MJ defense is also hard to replace too. He was the best defensive 2 guard in the league.

    I think it's fair to say that they'll be a championship contender. I think they could possibly go to the finals. Winning it tho? I dunno. Depends on the talent and a bit of luck. Like even in 91 finals, Pippen got a lot of credit for guarding Magic in game 2. Rightfully so. But MJ guarded Magic most of the time. And in game 3 was the most important game. Pippen tried to replicate what he did in game 2, but got fouled out. MJ also had a game tying shot in game 3 and sent them to OT where they won. Plus, MJ is a good passer and was finding Paxson due to his gravity. So, there's a lot of factors involved. The series instead of being 5 games, could've been 6-7. Those games were close. But, James Worthy and Scott got injured as well.

    And injury is another key.

    So, I dunno. Maybe, maybe not? But I wouldn't say it's a safe bet tho? It depends on the year. But I do think they would definitely go to the finals one of those years.

  11. #41
    Consensus Top 20-30 AT Roundball_Rock's Avatar
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    Default Re: Pippen put up 1/2 (.5) career assists per game more than ball hog Kobe.

    It's just ridiculous the way people talk about Pippen like he's Magic or even a guy capable of taking over pg full time. He wasn't.
    Pippen literally was a full-time PG in Portland in 2002 and 2003. What happened? Portland did much better during that time frame, especially compared to when he was hurt or off the court.

    It always fascinates me how the people who diminish Pippen the most will turn around and hype players like Drexler, Payton, Stockton, and even Miller. All these players were in the same era. It is obvious who the most "decorated" player of the group was--yet he is the one who was a bum?

    Imagine Pippen's career without Jordan and on what basis would you have him that high?
    He was projected to be a superstar by Detroit and other teams were high on him (Cleveland, Sacramento, etc.). Detroit "desperately" (GM's words) tried to trade up to draft him. Last I checked, MJ was not on any of these teams.

    People overstate the value of rangz for sidekicks/3rd options in their all-time ratings. If you look at ESPN's top 21-40 players, it is even between players with rangz and those without any.

    James Worthy, McHale, Dumars, Gasol, Klay all won multiple chips. None are close to Pippen all-time. That suggests there is a difference in quality there, which there is. Pippen was the only one of these players to make multiple all-NBA 1st teams. McHale made all-NBA 1st team too--but he did it only 1x (Pippen 3x) and that was the only all-NBA team McHale ever made. Pippen was the only one who was a real MVP candidate (McHale finished 4th in his peak year, but was behind his teammate Bird, who was 3rd).

    What we know for sure is if Pippen didn't play with Jordan, OP and his ilk would be telling us how great Pippen was like they do with every 90's all-star (even non-HOF players) except for MJ's teammates.

    So, like Kobe, there you have Clyde who nobody really thinks of as "playmaker...," but Pippen is somehow an all-time great one?
    Nobody thinks he was a great playmaker like Nash or Magic. Why people credit him is, those of us who watched him play, noticed his team's offenses consistently tanked whenever he was not around. When the same thing happens an entire career, then, unless you are an insecure stan, you have to reach an obvious conclusion. Even MVP Jordan couldn't keep the Bulls as a top 10 offense w/out Pippen at the controls in 98'.

    For perspective, Pippen and MJ stan favorite Stockton both missed time in 98'. When both came back, their offenses improved dramatically. Guess whose offense improved more, though? Hint: it wasn't Stockton's team.

  12. #42
    Why So Serious? dbugz's Avatar
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    Default Re: Pippen put up 1/2 (.5) career assists per game more than ball hog Kobe.

    Quote Originally Posted by Roundball_Rock View Post
    Pippen literally was a full-time PG in Portland in 2002 and 2003. What happened? Portland did much better during that time frame, especially compared to when he was hurt or off the court.

    It always fascinates me how the people who diminish Pippen the most will turn around and hype players like Drexler, Payton, Stockton, and even Miller. All these players were in the same era. It is obvious who the most "decorated" player of the group was--yet he is the one who was a bum?



    He was projected to be a superstar by Detroit and other teams were high on him (Cleveland, Sacramento, etc.). Detroit "desperately" (GM's words) tried to trade up to draft him. Last I checked, MJ was not on any of these teams.

    People overstate the value of rangz for sidekicks/3rd options in their all-time ratings. If you look at ESPN's top 21-40 players, it is even between players with rangz and those without any.

    James Worthy, McHale, Dumars, Gasol, Klay all won multiple chips. None are close to Pippen all-time. That suggests there is a difference in quality there, which there is. Pippen was the only one of these players to make multiple all-NBA 1st teams. McHale made all-NBA 1st team too--but he did it only 1x (Pippen 3x) and that was the only all-NBA team McHale ever made. Pippen was the only one who was a real MVP candidate (McHale finished 4th in his peak year, but was behind his teammate Bird, who was 3rd).

    What we know for sure is if Pippen didn't play with Jordan, OP and his ilk would be telling us how great Pippen was like they do with every 90's all-star (even non-HOF players) except for MJ's teammates.



    Nobody thinks he was a great playmaker like Nash or Magic. Why people credit him is, those of us who watched him play, noticed his team's offenses consistently tanked whenever he was not around. When the same thing happens an entire career, then, unless you are an insecure stan, you have to reach an obvious conclusion. Even MVP Jordan couldn't keep the Bulls as a top 10 offense w/out Pippen at the controls in 98'.

    For perspective, Pippen and MJ stan favorite Stockton both missed time in 98'. When both came back, their offenses improved dramatically. Guess whose offense improved more, though? Hint: it wasn't Stockton's team.






    imagine having an identity crisis

    get some help, you badly need it

  13. #43
    Serious playground baller
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    Default Re: Pippen put up 1/2 (.5) career assists per game more than ball hog Kobe.

    Nobody thinks he was a great playmaker like Nash or Magic. Why people credit him is, those of us who watched him play, noticed his team's offenses consistently tanked whenever he was not around. When the same thing happens an entire career, then, unless you are an insecure stan, you have to reach an obvious conclusion. Even MVP Jordan couldn't keep the Bulls as a top 10 offense w/out Pippen at the controls in 98'.
    Then so should Jordan. Pippen only averaged 1 more assist than Jordan during their title reign, and they "equaled" assists when the percentages are figured. We don't hear that from your ilk, but do see you ignore scoring, because that would capitulate Jordan's burden

    Quote Originally Posted by dbugz View Post




    imagine having an identity crisis

    get some help, you badly need it


    All these words about a "flawless" Jordan, but why is that same poster in threads talking about his "failures" Do LeBron fans really lie to themselves?

  14. #44
    Consensus Top 20-30 AT Roundball_Rock's Avatar
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    Default Re: Pippen put up 1/2 (.5) career assists per game more than ball hog Kobe.

    Quote Originally Posted by Soundwave/LostCause
    It's just ridiculous the way people talk about Pippen like he's Magic or even a guy capable of taking over pg full time. He wasn't.
    "Couldn't play full-time PG." From 2003 (so real time, not a MJ stan with an agenda decades later):

    The Blazers are in such a surprisingly strong position because Cheeks has rejuvenated 37-year-old Scottie Pippen by converting him into a high-energy point guard. Last Saturday, Pippen rescued the Blazers from their mini-crisis by playing help defense, pushing the tempo and feeding Rasheed Wallace inside in the first five minutes to set the tone for Portland's 94-80 win over Indiana. "He has six rings," center Dale Davis says of Pippen. "Who better to lead us?"

    Cheeks was hoping to go easy this season on Pippen, who started slowly after undergoing minor knee surgery last summer. But when the Blazers staggered to a 3-6 start, Cheeks made Michael Jordan's former lieutenant the point man. The Blazers have been on a 37-16 roll since.

    Pippen paid similar dividends when Cheeks turned him into a point guard during the second half of last season. While the position is still relatively new to Pippen--he was a small forward during his first 14 NBA seasons, including 11 in the Bulls' triangle offense--the responsibilities aren't. "He handled the ball the majority of the time in Chicago and pushed the tempo," says
    Pacers coach Isiah Thomas. "The difference is that he's calling a
    lot of the plays."
    https://vault.si.com/vault/2003/03/17/inside-the-nba

  15. #45
    Why So Serious? dbugz's Avatar
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    Default Re: Pippen put up 1/2 (.5) career assists per game more than ball hog Kobe.

    Quote Originally Posted by MadDog View Post


    All these words about a "flawless" Jordan, but why is that same poster in threads talking about his "failures" Do LeBron fans really lie to themselves?
    they are so desperate and stup!d at the same. typical libron fans

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