Chips aside, what are MJ and Bron's arguments over Wilt?

[Bronbron23]

He has multiple regular season and playoffs better than any of both bron and mj's. He was also the best athlete the game has ever seen. I personally view chips as a significant factor in evaluating players but for those who dont why isnt wilt number 1 on your list?

[GrayGoat]

Well the way Bill Russell used him as a jizz rag in the playoffs

(And don’t tell me Russell’s team was overly stacked comparatively because the amount of game 7’s and single digit wins say they weren’t)

[RRR3]

He has multiple regular season and playoffs better than any of both bron and mj's. He was also the best athlete the game has ever seen. I personally view chips as a significant factor in evaluating players but for those who dont why isnt wilt number 1 on your list?

He absolutely does not have playoffs better than LeBron and MJ

[Bronbron23]

Well the way Bill Russell used him as a jizz rag in the playoffs

(And don’t tell me Russell’s team was overly stacked comparatively because the amount of game 7’s and single digit wins say they weren’t)

Dish rag? He may have lost but in the post season wilt averaged like 30 and 20 on 60% againsr russell. Thats one hell of a fish rag.

Bron stans are hilarious. bron loses and puts up 33/8/11 on 39% shooting and he's a god. Wilt puts up 35/5/25 and loses and hes a dish rag. Bron stans are the best

[dankok8]

Early in his career when he was scoring a ton his teams were noticeably worse than the Celtics and you could even say he slightly overachieved but from about 1966 onwards, he had a good enough team to win a title every single year (except 1971 when West and Baylor were hurt) and finished with only 2 titles in 7 seasons and with only 1 chip as the best player on his team (1967). There is overwhelming evidence that he rarely had a winner's mentality. Chased stats, didn't want to be seen as a lumbering giant so he played finesse, didn't know how to pick his spots and do what his team needed in that particular game, choked in key moments etc. He had back-to-back-to-back bad performances in 1968, 1969 and 1970 in key games. Basically he was lesser player than his stats suggest. As opposed to Russell who was a better player than his stats suggest.

[NBAGOAT]

scoring 30-33 in a series vs russell actually doesnt look as good when you score 37+ during the rs. even for just good players, we give them a lot of shot if they score 20% less while being less efficient. It's not exactly the same since he's scoring so much during the rs but we see plenty of criticism even if a guy dropped from like 27ppg during the rs to like 24 in the ps

[Bronbron23]

He absolutely does not have playoffs better than LeBron and MJ

Are you joking?

[MadDog]

Better playoff and finals performers. One thing about Wilt are that his blocks were not calculated then. That can skew the advanced stats people look at. Doubt it makes up for the scoring gap though.

[8Ball]

More dominant playoff and finals performers.

LeBron more longevity over wilt. Ended up scoring more points.

[Roundball_Rock]

Different for the other two players.

Against MJ, Wilt had a glaring weakness as a FT shooter than MJ did not have.

Against, LeBron, longevity.

These are simplifications but you get the point.

An argument for Wilt is he could dominate in different roles, as the GOAT scorer, as a passer, and as a Russell-like rebounder/defender. Jordan was in the same role his entire career (other than briefly with Collins). LeBron has had some variation (e.g., playing different positions) but Wilt basically had three careers and was a MVP caliber player in each.

scoring 30-33 in a series vs russell actually doesnt look as good when you score 37+ during the rs. even for just good players, we give them a lot of shot if they score 20% less while being less efficient. It's not exactly the same since he's scoring so much during the rs but we see plenty of criticism even if a guy dropped from like 27ppg during the rs to like 24 in the ps

It is unfair, though. Russell is the GOAT defender and we saw guys like Iggy and Starks give LeBron and MJ trouble. Imagine if LeBron faced Kawhi as often as Wilt faced Russell or if MJ faced Payton (or Pippen--the one guy MJ said who could guard him) that often. Their playoff stats would go down compared to RS stats.

[dankok8]

Different for the other two players.

Against MJ, Wilt had a glaring weakness as a FT shooter than MJ did not have.

Against, LeBron, longevity.

These are simplifications but you get the point.

An argument for Wilt is he could dominate in different roles, as the GOAT scorer, as a passer, and as a Russell-like rebounder/defender. Jordan was in the same role his entire career (other than briefly with Collins). LeBron has had some variation (e.g., playing different positions) but Wilt basically had three careers and was a MVP caliber player in each.



It is unfair, though. Russell is the GOAT defender and we saw guys like Iggy and Starks give LeBron and MJ trouble. Imagine if LeBron faced Kawhi as often as Wilt faced Russell or if MJ faced Payton (or Pippen--the one guy MJ said who could guard him) that often. Their playoff stats would go down compared to RS stats.

Good post. Problem isn't Wilt's stats against Russell being lower. In fact his career stats against Russell are really good. Problem is that in big games Wilt usually put up much lower stats. See Game 7's vs. Boston in 1962, 1965, 1968 and 1969. Only in 1965 can you say he had a good game and absolve him. In others, Wilt left a lot on the table and in the latter two couldn't even outplay an older Russell. And that trend was maintained against other opponents like Game 7 vs. New York in 1970 so you can't attribute it all to Russell's defense. Wilt underperformed often in big games. When you do that you give critics a lot of ammunition.

[RRR3]

Are you joking?

No, Jesus Christ how stupid are you? These stats are available. It’s widely known MJ and Bron are better playoff performers than Wilt.

[Roundball_Rock]

Good post. Problem isn't Wilt's stats against Russell being lower. In fact his career stats against Russell are really good. Problem is that in big games Wilt usually put up much lower stats. See Game 7's vs. Boston in 1962, 1965, 1968 and 1969. Only in 1965 can you say he had a good game and absolve him. In others, Wilt left a lot on the table and in the latter two couldn't even outplay an older Russell. And that trend was maintained against other opponents like Game 7 vs. New York in 1970 so you can't attribute it all to Russell's defense. Wilt underperformed often in big games. When you do that you give critics a lot of ammunition.

Thanks. Good points. There was a lot of talk about Wilt's playoff record on ISH around the time Bill Simmons' book came out since he was so anti-Wilt (relatively speaking, he still had Wilt 6th all-time and presumably has him 7th today with LeBron moving to 2nd on his list) and people did deep dives into it on either side of the argument. He doesn't get discussed as much these days. Does anyone have any of those old threads to bump?

One of the biggest issues disputed was whether Wilt was "stat padding" or simply doing what his coach asked him to do.

[HylianNightmare]

None

[Bronbron23]

More dominant playoff and finals performers.

LeBron more longevity over wilt. Ended up scoring more points.

Why do you say they're more dominant playoff and final performers? The only thing that either on did better was passing. Wilt was a better scorrer, rebounder and defender.

And what does scoring more points mean when wilt was clearly the better scorer. Doing something longer than someone dosnt mean your better. I coukd see if were comparing 15 years to just a few but wilt had like 12 consecutive years of over 20pts and 20 rebounds.