How many great playoff series did Wade have from 2011-2014?

[starface]

He was great in 2011 but they didnt win the title anyway.

Mods.

Take care of this agitator please.

[Bronbron23]

The irony. The guy with 2 chips, 6 finals would be ringless without his best teammate but the guy with 0 chips and 0 finals didn't need him.

As to your comparison of Pippen 1995-1998 to Wade 2011-2014, let's check the tape. Both are four year periods so that makes the comp easier.

All-NBA 1st team: Pippen 2x, Wade 0x
All-NBA 1st/2nd team: Pippen 3x, Wade 1x
All-NBA: Pippen 4x, Wade 3x
Top 5 MVP: Pippen 1x, Wade 0x
Top 10 MVP: Pippen 3x, Wade 3x (Pippen 11th in the other year; Wade did not receive any votes in 14')
All-D 1st team: Pippen 4x, Wade 0x

It is funny, MJ stans will hype Kyrie Irving for making 2 all-NBA teams in 9 seasons (1 in 6 years in Cleveland) and never receiving a MVP vote (no LeBron teammate did in 11 years in Cleveland ) and then diminish a much more accomplished player.



Miller 17 on 41% (lower GS than Pippen, Kukoc)
Stockton 9.7 PPG (7 PPG on 7 FGA in Games 2-6 )

Pippen dominated on defense in both series--which you know but no MJ stan will give him credit for. The info is out there to Google for anyone who hasn't seen it but I suspect most people here have seen it covered--MJ stans just want to pretend otherwise.

Also notice he compares numbers eras apart at face value, the same people who talk about MJ scoring 45 or MJ being a lethal three point shooter today, etc.--all these era based adjustments towards higher scoring, efficiency.

Are they lying when they say it is easier to score today when they talk about today's players and anyone else from the 90's or are they lying when they say MJ's teammates would score the same on the same efficiency in this era?

Your giving me regular season shit. My response to the op was specifically about wades playoff performance which as you saw wasnt great overall but wasnt terrible either, much like pip.

And i acknowledged pips edge on defense but all that does is close the gap wade had offensively. Plus its not like wade wasnt a great defender in his own right.

As far being easier to score now it all depends on positions and the player. Yes in general its much easier to score for perimeter players because of the rules put in place. Pace and style of play have a role in that also. Im not sure how that applies to wade and pip though because most of those factors were just after most of wades career. That decision is more for the players of today.

[HoopsNY]

Your giving me regular season shit. My response to the op was specifically about wades playoff performance which as you saw wasnt great overall but wasnt terrible either, much like pip.

And i acknowledged pips edge on defense but all that does is close the gap wade had offensively. Plus its not like wade wasnt a great defender in his own right.

As far being easier to score now it all depends on positions and the player. Yes in general its much easier to score for perimeter players because of the rules put in place. Pace and style of play have a role in that also. Im not sure how that applies to wade and pip though because most of those factors were just after most of wades career. That decision is more for the players of today.

It's what he does. Then will accuse you of hating Pippen. Watch him comeback with 100 irrelevant points.

[Bronbron23]

It's what he does. Then will accuse you of hating Pippen. Watch him comeback with 100 irrelevant points.

Yeah i definitely dont hate pip. I think pip was a great player but i find most mj stans dont give him enough credit and most bron stans give him to much. Pip was a great defender but that was really the only thing he was great at. Thing is mj was just as great on that end. As was rod. It was the combination of them that made the bulls defense what it was but most bron stans seem to credit pip for the majority of it.

[Roundball_Rock]

The point is you, and your ilk, are comparing across eras knowing full well that scoring and efficiency are inflated in this era (which you all are awfully quick to point out when it comes to anything but this narrow agenda). You don't want any within era comparisons because it would undercut or destroy (depending on the context) your misleading point.

20 PPG in 2014 isn't the same as 20 PPG in 1998. The Bulls scored 88 PPG in the 98' finals, the Jazz 80 PPG. You expect 25 PPG when scoring is that low? It was that low due to pace but also due to lower efficiency via tougher defenses. MJ stan favorite Stockton had a 2 point game and was 7 PPG for games 2-6. Same series.

Pip was a great defender but that was really the only thing he was great at.

He was a top 10 scorer w/out MJ in 94' and 95'. He was an elite rebounder for a wing. He was a strong playmaker. His entire reputation in the 90's was his all-around play. Coaches voted him the best all-around player in 95' in a USA Today survey. Yet he is presented as Ben Wallace by MJ stans. Here is Bill Simmons:

Only Jordan was a better all-around player in the ’90s … and that was debatable. From ’91 to ’95, Pippen averaged a 20-8-6 with 2.4 steals, shot 50 percent and doubled as the league’s top defensive player.

You can't be the best or second best "all-around" player if you are a one dimensional player. Keep trying to re-write history for younger people, though.

https://www.theringer.com/nba/2020/4...f-fame-pyramid

[Bronbron23]

The point is you, and your ilk, are comparing across eras knowing full well that scoring and efficiency are inflated in this era (which you all are awfully quick to point out when it comes to anything but this narrow agenda). You don't want any within era comparisons because it would undercut or destroy (depending on the context) your misleading point.

20 PPG in 2014 isn't the same as 20 PPG in 1998. The Bulls scored 88 PPG in the 98' finals, the Jazz 80 PPG. You expect 25 PPG when scoring is that low? It was that low due to pace but also due to lower efficiency via tougher defenses. MJ stan favorite Stockton had a 2 point game and was 7 PPG for games 2-6. Same series.



He was a top 10 scorer w/out MJ in 94' and 95'. He was an elite rebounder for a wing. He was a strong playmaker. His entire reputation in the 90's was his all-around play. Coaches voted him the best all-around player in 95' in a USA Today survey. Yet he is presented as Ben Wallace by MJ stans. Here is Bill Simmons:



You can't be the best or second best "all-around" player if you are a one dimensional player. Keep trying to re-write history for younger people, though.

https://www.theringer.com/nba/2020/4...f-fame-pyramid

Again the difference in era's dosnt apply as much when comparing pip and wade. When wade played the pace and points scored was very close to what it was when mj played. That includes his time with bron so once again thats a mute point. The bulls scored 93 points a game in the 98 playoffs the heat scored 97 in the 2014 playoffs. How much of that difference is pips offense really benefitting? 1 point maybe. Oh that was the same in 2013 btw and in if you compare heat 2012 to bulls 1996 its almost even and 2011 heat actually scored more points a game in the playoff than the 1995 bulls so again what your saying is absolutely irrelevant.

And pip was a good scorer he wasn't a great one. You've seen his scoring performances throughout the playoffs. He's never been a consistent elite scorer. He's also a good passer and rebounder but elite is a stretch. He's not up there with the elite passers like magic and stocton and he's not up there with any of the elite rebounders. Pip was really great at defense and really good to good at everything else.

[MadDog]

Better series? 2011 Wade was literally better for an ENTIRE playoff run. In that postseason, Wade averaged more PPG and shot the ball better, had a higher PER/BPM/VORP and played better defense. If it weren't for LeBron's disastrous play, Wade would have another FMVP. We'd also be talking about TWO TEAMS where LeBron played the secondary role.

[HoopsNY]

The point is you, and your ilk, are comparing across eras knowing full well that scoring and efficiency are inflated in this era (which you all are awfully quick to point out when it comes to anything but this narrow agenda). You don't want any within era comparisons because it would undercut or destroy (depending on the context) your misleading point.

Now now now Roundy! Let's not continue to be deceitful!

League Averages 2011-2014

2010-11: 99.6 PPG/ 92.1 Pace/ 46% FGs
2011-12: 96.3 PPG/ 91.3 Pace/ 45% FGs
2012-13: 98.1 PPG/ 92.0 Pace/ 45% FGs
2013-14: 101.0 PPG/ 93.9 Pace/ 45% FGs

League Averages 1995-98

1994-95: 101.4 PPG/ 92.9 Pace/ 47%
1995-96: 99.5 PPG/ 91.8 Pace/ 46%
1996-97: 96.9 PPG/ 90.1 Pace/ 46%
1997-98: 95.6 PPG/ 90.3 Pace/ 45%

The differences are not drastic, though I would still give the edge to 2011-14 for offense. When people talk about the offensive production being higher, they're really talking about the last 5-6 seasons, not the first 4.

[Roundball_Rock]

Interesting, Bronbron. So I'll file that away when we hear about handchecking, spacing, less rim protection, faster pace, etc. in future threads. The same factors that would cause MJ to go from 33 PPG then to 45 PPG today but would keep Pippen exactly the same.

It's an odd argument for MJ stans to make. His comp's numbers pale in comparison to LeBron's comps (which is why you never see them posted ) and LeBron's scoring fares well compared to MJ's in the playoffs and he crushes him in rebounding, assists--all true if we make the assume assumption that there is no era difference in boosting these stats (stat inflation is not an a la carte menu--Pippen, Kukoc, etc. were in the same offense, same team, same era facing the same defenses as MJ).

He's never been a consistent elite scorer. He's also a good passer and rebounder but elite is a stretch.

Here is Ben Taylor comparing Pippen's rebounding to other SF/SG/PG historically:

He was always a phenomenal rebounder, and his peak defensive rebounding rate (19.4 percent) ranks in the 99th percentile among non-bigs

That’s the 34th-best defensive rebounding rate for non-bigs and the 22nd-best relative rate (+5.8 percent) ever.

https://backpicks.com/2018/01/29/bac...cottie-pippen/

[MadDog]

Good post, HoopsNY. Facts are kryptonite for the contingent

Yeah i definitely dont hate pip. I think pip was a great player but i find most mj stans dont give him enough credit and most bron stans give him to much. Pip was a great defender but that was really the only thing he was great at. Thing is mj was just as great on that end. As was rod. It was the combination of them that made the bulls defense what it was but most bron stans seem to credit pip for the majority of it.

Pippen was GARBAGE on offense during the second 3-peat. Averaged ~17 points on 40% shooting and only put up 5 assists. He wasn't a good scorer and definitely wasn't John Stockton either (LeBron fans literally pretend that he is ). Jordan carried Chicago's offense like no other great has, and three-peating backs that up.

[HoopsNY]

Interesting. So I'll file that away when we hear about handchecking, spacing, less rim protection, faster pace, etc. in future threads. The same factors that would cause MJ to go from 33 PPG then to 45 PPG today but would keep Pippen exactly the same.

There's nothing interesting here. Do I say MJ would average 45 PPG in today's game, let alone 45 PPG between 2010-2014? No. In that same thread, I said 33-35 PPG is possible. Furthermore, where did I say Pippen wouldn't average more in today's game?

Once again, you conflate what it is that I say with what others on this forum say. At least READ what I say man.

[HoopsNY]

Good post, HoopsNY. Facts are kryptonite for the contingent



Pippen was GARBAGE on offense during the second 3-peat. Averaged ~17 points on 40% shooting and only put up 5 assists. He wasn't a good scorer and definitely wasn't John Stockton either (LeBron fans literally pretend that he is ). Jordan carried Chicago's offense like no other great has, and three-peating backs that up.

He wasn't garbage in 1997. He was injured in 1996 and injured in the ECF of 1998, as well as the finals. Some context is important bro.

[Roundball_Rock]

Let's compare perimeter #1's in the finals for a quick check. If the #1 was a big, let's look at their best perimeter option.

91' Magic 19 PPG on 48%
92' Drexler 25 PPG on 41%
93' Johnson 17 PPG on 42%
96' Payton 18 PPG on 44%
97' Stockton 15 PPG on 50%
98' Stockton 9.7 PPG on 49% (7 PPG on 41% in Games 2-6--had one good game)

20 PPG must have been hard in the 90's--or the players simply not good enough if we accept the line of reasoning MJ stans put forward that PPG plus FG%=how well a player played--since no one seems to be able to crack 20+ against the Bulls, especially perimeter players.

How about the same for LeBron's comp?

07' Parker 25 PPG on 57%
11' Terry 18 PPG on 49%
12' KD 31 PPG on 55%
13' Parker 16 PPG on 41%
14' Kawhi 18 PPG on 61%
15' Curry 26 PPG on 44%
16' Curry 23 PPG on 40%
17' KD 35 PPG on 56%
18' KD 29 PPG on 53%
20' Butler 26 PPG on 55%

Damn. The LeBron comp numbers blow away Jordan's comp in the only category MJ stans care about. Even Jason Terry who is a meme is scoring as much as Payton on higher efficiency and blowing away Stockton (whose 98' numbers resemble 11' Kidd).

[MadDog]

He wasn't garbage in 1997. He was injured in 1996 and injured in the ECF of 1998, as well as the finals. Some context is important bro.

He was garbage by star standards. Not only that, but Wade played with injuries throughout 2011-2014. Why isn't he given an excuse?

91' Magic 19 PPG on 48%
97' Stockton 15 PPG on 50%
98' Stockton 9.7 PPG on 49%

Magic and Stockon being "judged" for their PPG, in one series mind you, yet we are to ignore their double-digit assists Don't bring up Pippen either. He maxed out at 5 during the second 3-peat

[HoopsNY]

He was garbage by star standards. Not only that, but Wade played with injuries throughout 2011-2014. He's not given an excuse, so what about that "context"?

That context definitely matters. But it's tough to say a star player is garbage given him dealing with injuries. We can admire MJ's ability to still produce and lead his team to victories despite having to deal with those injuries. The same can be said about LeBron.