How many great playoff series did Wade have from 2011-2014?

[Bronbron23]

Interesting, Bronbron. So I'll file that away when we hear about handchecking, spacing, less rim protection, faster pace, etc. in future threads. The same factors that would cause MJ to go from 33 PPG then to 45 PPG today but would keep Pippen exactly the same.

It's an odd argument for MJ stans to make. His comp's numbers pale in comparison to LeBron's comps (which is why you never see them posted ) and LeBron's scoring fares well compared to MJ's in the playoffs and he crushes him in rebounding, assists--all true if we make the assume assumption that there is no era difference in boosting these stats (stat inflation is not an a la carte menu--Pippen, Kukoc, etc. were in the same offense, same team, same era facing the same defenses as MJ).



Here is Ben Taylor comparing Pippen's rebounding to other SF/SG/PG historically:



https://backpicks.com/2018/01/29/bac...cottie-pippen/

Ok well if you wanna be more specific and say he's a great rebou der for a non big than thats a different story but thats like saying mj is an elite passer for a shooting gaurd. Both are elite at their position for sure.

And again we're talking about wades generation which isnt this generation. Theres a pretty big difference between just 6 years ago and now. Before that there wasnt as much of a difference between era's as far as defense, pace and scoring. And im pretty sure i was one of the mj fans that said mj wouldn't score 45 in this era and he for damn sure wouldn't come close to that in wades era.

[Bronbron23]

Good post, HoopsNY. Facts are kryptonite for the contingent



Pippen was GARBAGE on offense during the second 3-peat. Averaged ~17 points on 40% shooting and only put up 5 assists. He wasn't a good scorer and definitely wasn't John Stockton either (LeBron fans literally pretend that he is ). Jordan carried Chicago's offense like no other great has, and three-peating backs that up.

I wouldn't say he was garbage but if one of bron second options put up those numbers along side bron thats definitely what they would say.

[Bronbron23]

He wasn't garbage in 1997. He was injured in 1996 and injured in the ECF of 1998, as well as the finals. Some context is important bro.

He definitely wasn't garbage but its irrelevant if he was hurt or not. The fact was he wasnt an elite scorer during that time in the post season.

[Gus Hemmingway]

He was garbage by star standards. Not only that, but Wade played with injuries throughout 2011-2014. Why isn't he given an excuse?


Magic and Stockon being "judged" for their PPG, in one series mind you, yet we are to ignore their double-digit assists Don't bring up Pippen either. He maxed out at 5 during the second 3-peat

Why was Pippen getting FMVP consideration in the 1998 Finals then?

[Roundball_Rock]

Why was Pippen getting FMVP consideration in the 1998 Finals then?

Don't expect an answer. In the funhouse mirrors of Jordanstan, that never happened nor did Rodman get FMVP consideration in 96' (though they will slob Kemp for the same). MJ won all by himself, carrying those scrubs! Pippen sucked. 16 PPG is unacceptable, even when injured late in the series (it was 20 PPG before then and Kukoc was 23 PPG those final 2 games filling the void). How can 16 PPG be enough when Stockton is putting up a dominant 7 outside of Game 1? If 16 PPG sucks (defense, rebounding, etc. doesn't count), then Stockton logically is a joke, right?

It is a shame the NBA doesn't issue all-Playoff teams so another BS talking point MJ stains rely on could be eliminated. They like to hide behind "Oh, it is the RS!" to ignore much superior RS accolades, as if we have all-NBA data for the PO. If the PO had an all-Playoff 1st/2nd/3rd team, guess who would be on them?

In 97' some in the media said Pippen may have been the Bulls' playoff MVP (e.g., Marv Albert during the NBA finals or Sports Illustrated in a Game 1 of the NBA finals write up). MJ stans will swear up and down Pippen sucked during that run. You can't trust them.

Ok well if you wanna be more specific and say he's a great rebou der for a non big than thats a different story but thats like saying mj is an elite passer for a shooting gaurd. Both are elite at their position for sure.

Yeah, and MJ was an elite rebounder for a SG too. That stuff matters. They won Game 7 of the 98' ECF because Pippen and Jordan crashed the boards--Miller didn't nor did Indiana's post players. Moreover, there will be games or series or even playoff runs where a player does not perform up to par (due to injuries or otherwise). Pippen was able to increase his rebounding whenever Grant's decreased or when Grant was not there (10 RPG against Orlando). I haven't looked at MJ's RPG during the same runs but I assume he increased as well. Having players who can do this expands your margin for error when Grant is doing something like averaging 6 RPG against Oakley.

And again we're talking about wades generation which isnt this generation. Theres a pretty big difference between just 6 years ago and now. Before that there wasnt as much of a difference between era's as far as defense, pace and scoring

The biggest change occurred going into the 05' season. All anyone has to do is see perimeter star scoring in 03', 04' and compare it against the same for 05', 06'. Why is this surprising? The rules were changed to increase scoring for star perimeter players. That is exactly what happened. Stars are the ones who benefit from those type of changes, not role players.

Stockton put up 9.7 PPG in a NBA finals as a second option. These days your 7th option could score more than that and you can still lose, as Miami did in 20'.

[MadDog]

Why was Pippen getting FMVP consideration in the 1998 Finals then?

Consideration? What is that, like Finals appearances for your clan? Name another player who 3-peated, while his sidekick averaged ~17 on 40% shooting We get it. LeBron fans like "Roundball_Rock" love mentioning John Stockton, but the rest of us IN THE KNOW understand that Stockton dished double-digit assists throughout his career. Second 3-peat Pippen, in the playoffs, threw for 5 with 3 turnovers. No, that isn't a typo either

[Roundball_Rock]

For example, Gus, here is Sports Illustrated after Game 1 of the 97' NBA finals. In other words, after 14 of the 19 Bulls playoff games that year. Who are you going to believe? Respected reporters whose job was to tell their audience what happened in real time or MJ stans 23 years later?

JUN 9, 1997

EXTENDING HIMSELF NOT EVEN YOU KNOW WHO HAS BEEN MORE VALUABLE THAN SCOTTIE PIPPEN IN THE BULLS' POSTSEASON RUN

It is right there in the story's headline. Yet people, all fans of the same player with an obvious agenda, 23 years later will swear he sucked during that playoff run.

For the better part of 10 years in Chicago, picking up four NBA
championship rings and two Olympic gold medals along the way,
Pippen has played the role of Jordan's sidekick. And though
Jordan's basket knocked another outstanding effort by Pippen out
of the headlines, Pippen's performance on Sunday certified that
he--as much as Jordan--has been the Bulls' MVP throughout the
postseason.

Subtle difference in the article versus the headline--but the headline is picked by the editor, not the reporter so it tells us what that person thought.

In many ways Pippen has been the Bulls' most consistent
performer this postseason, averaging 18.8 points, 6.1 rebounds
and 3.9 assists through Sunday while causing havoc on the
defensive end. It was Pippen who made the dunk that beat the
Washington Bullets in Game 3 of their first-round series, and it
was Pippen who shut down Heat forward Jamal Mashburn in the
Bulls' five-game series victory. "He has been unbelievable,"
says Chicago guard Steve Kerr. "He's hit some big shots. He
makes things easier on Michael."

Wait, I thought he never hit big shots? I read it here on ISH.

Last year Pippen helped the Bulls to their fourth title in six
years while playing with a sore back, neck and foot, and last
week he spent hours undergoing treatment for his injured foot.
"During his therapy you could see he was in a lot of pain," says
Chicago forward Jud Buechler. "We had no idea before the game if
he could play at all, let alone as much as he did. But that's
Scottie."

This isn't relevant to 97' but it gives you context for 96'--MJ stans never mention he had a trio of injuries in the 96' playoffs (which we saw again in this thread). They would have lost the finals as a result (he overcame them in the ECF, we heard about game score earlier--he had a higher GS than peak Penny in both the 96' and 95' series. Ever see the same poster mention that? ) but Rodman filled the void with a FMVP-worthy performance so they got away with it. That is the luxury of having 3 HOF players against 1 (Payton).

https://vault.si.com/vault/1997/06/0...postseason-run

[Bronbron23]

Don't expect an answer. In Jordanstan, that never happened nor did Rodman get FMVP consideration in 96'.

It is a shame the NBA doesn't issue all-Playoff teams. They like to hide behind "Oh, it is the RS!" to ignore much superior RS accolades, as if we have all-NBA data for the PO. If the PO had an all-NBA 1st/2nd/3rd team, guess who would be on them?

In 97' some in the media called Pippen the Bulls' PO MVP.MJ stans will swear up and down Pippen sucked during that run. You can't trust them.



Yeah, and MJ was an elite rebounder for a SG too. That stuff matters. They won Game 7 of the 98' ECF because Pippen and Jordan crashed the boards--Miller didn't nor did Indiana's post players. Moreover, there will be games or series or even playoff runs where a player does not perform up to par (due to injuries or otherwise). Pippen was able to increase his rebounding whenever Grant's decreased or when Grant was not there (10 RPG against Orlando). I haven't looked at MJ's RPG during the same runs but I assume he increased as well. Having players who can do this expands your margin for error when Grant is doing something like averaging 6 RPG against Oakley.



The biggest change occurred going into the 05' season. All anyone has to do is see perimeter star scoring in 03', 04' and compare it against the same for 05', 06'. Why is this surprising? The rules were changed to increase scoring for star perimeter players. That is exactly what happened. Stars are the ones who benefit from those type of changes, not role players.

Stockton put up 9.7 PPG in a NBA finals as a second option. These days your 7th option could score more than that and you can still lose, as Miami did in 20'.

There were a few major changes in the last 20 years. 05 was one and recently was another. Id say the recent changes have had the most impact. From mj's 2nd 3 peat days until 06 there wasnt much difference . Fg attempts were the same, 3 pt attempts were the same pace was the same and pts per game were the same. Shit was pretty much identical. Its the last 5 or 6 years that everything has drastically changed. Fga's are up by 8 or so. 3"s are up by more than 10 a game. Pace is up by 8 and pts per game is up by more than 10. Style of play and the shot clock on a rebound have been a factor to that also.

As far as your stocton analogy it dosnt really work. As we already said there's a huge difference between mj's days and now. The argument is basically offense vs defense. The game was more slow, physical and defensive in mj's day and now its more fast,free and offensive now. The rule changes throughout the years achieved there intended purpose. So while your looking at it from a offensive perspective i could easily flip it and come at it from a defensive one and say something like in the late 90's you had to hold the supporting cast to low single digits to win. Now you can let bums score 10 plus a game and you can still win. I mean ya the 7th man on the roster can score 10 now but he also allows 10.

[Hey Yo]

He was great in 2011 but they didnt win the title anyway.

Thats the thing....people say Wade showed James how to win, so how's that right if Wade showed James how to lose in 2011?

[Roundball_Rock]

BPM is adjusted within era so that gives us a window into relative performance. While we are at it, let's throw in Irving, since the people pushing Wade here are the same people who push Irving (I wonder why? ). To give him a fourth year to make the samples equally large, let's include 2019 (he didn't show up for the 18' playoffs).

Pippen 1995-1998: 5.9, 7.8, 5.1, 5.6
Wade 2011-2014: 8.4, 5.3, 3.1, 0.9
Irving 2015-2017/2019: 5.2, 6.0, 2.2, 2.5

Pippen PO BPM ranks: 8th, 3rd, 10th, 14th
Wade PO BPM ranks: 2nd, 10th, 25th, 60th (behind Lance Stephenson)
Irving PO BPM ranks: 11th, 10th, 34th, 31st

BPM doesn't even capture defense--there is no BPM point you get for wrecking the Utah and Indiana offenses. This tells us what we already know: Wade was excellent the first two years but tailed off considerably in the other two years. Pippen was consistent throughout the entire 1991-1998 run. He was 3rd and 14th in the two of eight runs MJ stains point to--Wade was 25th and 60th in two of the four. As to Irving, he peaked lower than the other two players and was inconsistent like Wade.

How about VORP?

Pippen PO VORP ranks 1995-1998: 16th, 2nd, 4th, 3rd
Wade PO VORP ranks 1995-1998: 1st, 4th, 8th, 27th
Irving VORP ranks 2015-2017/2019: 11th, 4th, 13th, 28th

VORP is a cumulative stat, like WS, so teams that make the finals will tend to have the top players since they played the most games. In 95' if the Bulls played as many games as the Rockets did, Pippen's VORP would have ranked 2nd behind MJ.

VORP also shows the same major falloff for Wade in 14'. He made the finals and still was 27th despite the extra games.

Earlier we heard we can't use RS accolades as measure of their status relative to the league in those seasons. Now we will hear we can't use PO advanced stats--only PPG.

While we are at it, let's throw in 1991-1993 for Pippen and combine them with 1995-1998 in an easy "table."

1991-1993/1995-1998 PO BPM ranks: 8th, 4th, 31st, 8th, 3rd, 10th, 14th
1991-1993/1995-1998 PO VORP ranks: 4th, 3rd, 12th, 16th, 2nd, 4th, 3rd

The consistency is remarkable, and as noted earlier, these don't account for elite defense.

As far as your stocton analogy it dosnt really work. As we already said there's a huge difference between mj's days and now. The argument is basically offense vs defense. The game was more slow, physical and defensive in mj's day and now its more fast,free and offensive now. The rule changes throughout the years achieved there intended purpose.

So you admit it. Then why are you comparing 1998 numbers to 2014 as if 20 PPG in 14' is the same as in 98'? Note that as soon as Stockton's 7 PPG was raised, suddenly the era mattered.

[Bronbron23]

BPM is adjusted within era so that gives us a window into relative performance. While we are at it, let's throw in Irving, since the people pushing Wade here are the same people who push Irving (I wonder why? ). To give him a fourth year to make the samples equally large, let's include 2019 (he didn't show up for the 18' playoffs).

Pippen 1995-1998: 5.9, 7.8, 5.1, 5.6
Wade 2011-2014: 8.4, 5.3, 3.1, 0.9
Irving 2015-2017/2019: 5.2, 6.0, 2.2, 2.5

Pippen PO BPM ranks: 8th, 3rd, 10th, 14th
Wade PO BPM ranks: 2nd, 10th, 25th, 60th (behind Lance Stephenson)
Irving PO BPM ranks: 11th, 10th, 34th, 31st

BPM doesn't even capture defense--there is no BPM point you get for wrecking the Utah and Indiana offenses. This tells us what we already know: Wade was excellent the first two years but tailed off considerably in the other two years. Pippen was consistent throughout the entire 1991-1998 run. He was 3rd and 14th in the two of eight runs MJ stains point to--Wade was 25th and 60th in two of the four. As to Irving, he peaked lower than the other two players and was inconsistent like Wade.

How about VORP?

Pippen PO VORP ranks 1995-1998: 16th, 2nd, 4th, 3rd
Wade PO VORP ranks 1995-1998: 1st, 4th, 8th, 27th
Irving VORP ranks 2015-2017/2019: 11th, 4th, 13th, 28th

VORP is a cumulative stat, like WS, so teams that make the finals will tend to have the top players since they played the most games. In 95' if the Bulls played as many games as the Rockets did, Pippen's VORP would have ranked 2nd behind MJ.

VORP also shows the same major falloff for Wade in 14'. He made the finals and still was 27th despite the extra games.

Earlier we heard we can't use RS accolades as measure of their status relative to the league in those seasons. Now we will hear we can't use PO advanced stats--only PPG.

While we are at it, let's throw in 1991-1993 for Pippen and combine them with 1995-1998 in an easy "table."

1991-1993/1995-1998 PO BPM ranks: 8th, 4th, 31st, 8th, 3rd, 10th, 14th
1991-1993/1995-1998 PO VORP ranks: 4th, 3rd, 12th, 16th, 2nd, 4th, 3rd

The consistency is remarkable, and as noted earlier, these don't account for elite defense.



So you admit it. Then why are you comparing 1998 numbers to 2014 as if 20 PPG in 14' is the same as in 98'? Note that as soon as Stockton's 7 PPG was raised, suddenly the era mattered.

No dude when i say mj's days and now i mean right now or the last few years. Wades era and pips era compare just fine.

[MadDog]

Pippen "The GOAT Playmaker" with a whopping 5 assists and 3 turnovers. Murdering the comp with 17 big ones on a blistering 40% shooting. No wonder Jordan three-peated again! Just look at those impressive numbers!

All this nonsense about Wade, but Pippen never BOTH outscored/outdefended Jordan for a playoff run and/or never averaged a better BPM/VORP/PER. Wade bested LeBron in those metrics and it STILL wasn’t enough help. Below are the list of HOFers LeBron has played with too.

Dwyane Wade (5 Seasons)
Chris Bosh (4 Seasons)
Kyrie Irving (4 Seasons)
Kevin Love (4 Seasons—exclude him if you want, makes no difference really)
Shaquille O'Neil (1 Season)
Anthony Davis (1 Season
Dwight Howard (1 Season)

So why does LeBron need the reserve and national guard?

[Bronbron23]

Pippen "The GOAT Playmaker" with a whopping 5 assists and 3 turnovers. Murdering the comp with 17 big ones on a blistering 40% shooting. No wonder Jordan three-peated again! Just look at those impressive numbers!

All this nonsense about Wade, but Pippen never BOTH outscored/outdefended Jordan for a playoff run and/or never averaged a better BPM/VORP/PER. Wade bested LeBron in those metrics and it STILL wasn’t enough help. Below are the list of HOFers LeBron has played with too.

Dwyane Wade (5 Seasons)
Chris Bosh (4 Seasons)
Kyrie Irving (4 Seasons)
Kevin Love (4 Seasons—exclude him if you want, makes no difference really)
Shaquille O'Neil (1 Season)
Anthony Davis (1 Season
Dwight Howard (1 Season)

So why does LeBron need the reserve and national guard?

Yeah thats the hole in these brons stans argument. Pips playoff numbers just dont warrant the praise they give him. If anyone else was to have those numbers they'd crucify them. Even someone who was a great defender. I can only imagine what they'd say if kawhi or ad had those numbers. If ad had those numbers and lakers lost they'd say bron lost because ad was trash. If he had those numbers and won they'd say bron carried him and won despite ad being trash.

[8Ball]

2011 vs Boston
2011 vs Mavs
2012 vs Indiana

That's it.

[MadDog]

Yeah thats the hole in these brons stans argument. Pips playoff numbers just dont warrant the praise they give him. If anyone else was to have those numbers they'd crucify them. Even someone who was a great defender. I can only imagine what they'd say if kawhi or ad had those numbers. If ad had those numbers and lakers lost they'd say bron lost because ad was trash. If he had those numbers and won they'd say bron carried him and won despite ad being trash.

Bingo. And if that were AD, you wouldn't have psuedo fans of his propping up role player numbers