View Poll Results: Which team is stronger?

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  • 93 Suns(62-20)

    1 5.26%
  • 96 Supersonics(64-18)

    6 31.58%
  • 18 Warriors(58-24)

    12 63.16%
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  1. #76
    National High School Star dankok8's Avatar
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    Default Re: If the 18 Warriors are a superteam, how about 93 Suns & 96 Supersonics?

    Quote Originally Posted by Phoenix View Post
    Direct that to the guy who raised the point about HOFers to begin with (72-10) but I wouldn't say the 96 Sonics winning a title means guys like Detlef, Hawkins and Perkins necessarily get in. Who would you say is better between, say, Glen Rice and Hawkins? If Hawkins wins in 96 as the 4th best player and his career is otherwise what it is, does it make him better than Rice or more HOF worthy? I wouldn't say so. If Hawkins was gonna make more all-star teams than one, what was stopping him? He had a couple of 20ppg seasons and outside of that had a solid but unremarkable career. Far from HOF worthy, and that would be the case even if Seattle won in 96.

    Kemp clearly had HOF talent but he fell way off once he left the Sonics. And then you ask yourself why did guys like Grant Hill and Tmac get in on their first year of eligibility and Kemp is still on the outside? If it's about HOF talent then that's a different argument than whether one actually makes it based on whatever arbitrary criteria. Kemp and Payton were the two inarguable HOF talents. Right now Payton is the only HOFer as in who is actually in ( and he was a role player on the one title team he played for, so his peak/prime play is why he got in). Detlef and Hawkins fell into the 'very good' category that you could put on alot of players. Same for Perkins, who incidentally started 20 games in 96. If the rest of his career wasn't HOF worthy I'm not a sure why Seattle winning in 96 with his contributions that season elevates him to that level. He would have been a good piece of the puzzle but we're really stretching here with the HOF talk.

    KJ is def HOF 'talent' so I can only imagine lack of longevity is keeping him out( then again the aforementioned Tmac and Grant Hill were pretty much done as superstars by 28 so who knows how this goes). Mark Price is a HOF talent. So is Tim Hardaway. Don't know why either is in( maybe Hardaway is blackballed because of his anti-gay comments but he's been an advocate since). Why isn't Toni Kukoc in the hall, both for his NBA contributions as well as international career? I don't know how these things are decided.
    Good post. I don't think Hawkins or Perkins would be locks to get in but they would have a small chance. Kemp though would be a lock especially as the likely FMVP and Schrempf is likely IMO. Detlef would go on to put up a few more great all-around seasons and with a title under his belt he gets a few more ASG appearances and gets in.

    My point is these excuses about losing... MJ beat a 1-HOFer Sonics team full of role players... If MJ lost to them he would have lost to a stacked 3-HOFer Sonics team. That's the problem with using HOFers in comparisons. I was making the same point in the Wilt-Russell thread when 3ball said Russell had an 8 HOF edge on Wilt which is a ridiculously wrong take. Inaccurate and faulty in reasoning...

    Of course I have no problem admitting that this sword cuts both ways. Bosh made a bunch of ASG and became a shoe-in for HOF despite not playing anything special from 2012-2014 during the Heat's best years. He was probably not better than Schrempf in 1996 but achieved undisputed HOF status thanks to a couple of titles and the ridiculous "Big 3" narratives.

  2. #77
    ISH Bingo card Phoenix's Avatar
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    Default Re: If the 18 Warriors are a superteam, how about 93 Suns & 96 Supersonics?

    Quote Originally Posted by dankok8 View Post
    Good post. I don't think Hawkins or Perkins would be locks to get in but they would have a small chance. Kemp though would be a lock especially as the likely FMVP and Schrempf is likely IMO. Detlef would go on to put up a few more great all-around seasons and with a title under his belt he gets a few more ASG appearances and gets in.

    My point is these excuses about losing... MJ beat a 1-HOFer Sonics team full of role players... If MJ lost to them he would have lost to a stacked 3-HOFer Sonics team. That's the problem with using HOFers in comparisons. I was making the same point in the Wilt-Russell thread when 3ball said Russell had an 8 HOF edge on Wilt which is a ridiculously wrong take. Inaccurate and faulty in reasoning...

    Of course I have no problem admitting that this sword cuts both ways. Bosh made a bunch of ASG and became a shoe-in for HOF despite not playing anything special from 2012-2014 during the Heat's best years. He was probably not better than Schrempf in 1996 but achieved undisputed HOF status thanks to a couple of titles and the ridiculous "Big 3" narratives.
    Kemp is a bubble candidate( think that's the right term). If the Sonics won in 96 with him playing as he did that would have likely tipped him firmly into HOF territory regardless of his post Seattle flameout. As it stands now he may get voted in during a weak candidate year, but he's been eligible for a while now. If he hasnt gotten in the last 15 years you have to ask what would make him get randomly picked one year. As an aside, Ben wallace should have gotten in by now as well.

    Good point about Bosh and this is where the HOF reasoning gets tricky as you said. Without that Miami run he possibly toils in mediocrity for his career, puts up a 8 year window of 20-10 or whatever and nobody cares after the fact. That's partly why the basketball community in general needs to get better at determining who is actually good at basketball without leaning on championships. Its become a lazy argument to separate the cream but so much of how much you win or loss is circumstantial.

  3. #78
    Kropotkin stan RRR3's Avatar
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    Default Re: If the 18 Warriors are a superteam, how about 93 Suns & 96 Supersonics?

    MJ stans babbling like madmen about Sam friggin Perkins being a HOFer


    Never go full OLD SKEWL.

  4. #79
    NBA Legend and Hall of Famer tpols's Avatar
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    Default Re: If the 18 Warriors are a superteam, how about 93 Suns & 96 Supersonics?

    For what it's worth for all three teams...

    Pre-season odds at a title

    1993 Suns +1000
    1996 Supersonics +800
    2018 Warriors -187

  5. #80
    NBA Legend and Hall of Famer tpols's Avatar
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    Default Re: If the 18 Warriors are a superteam, how about 93 Suns & 96 Supersonics?

    I'm noticing odds in the 90s were so much more even. You could have a 10th ranked team with +1500 odds to win a championship like what it was in 1994... the 10th ranked team for 2019 was at +10000 odds. Incredible lack of parity by comparison today to the 90s. Super teams and all the team hopping did this. It's basically a done deal whose going to win outside injuries.

  6. #81
    Hornets and Suns 4lyfe Smoke117's Avatar
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    Default Re: If the 18 Warriors are a superteam, how about 93 Suns & 96 Supersonics?

    Quote Originally Posted by dankok8 View Post
    I don't think Hawkins or Perkins would be locks to get in but they would have a small chance.
    lol The Sonics could have three peated and Hawkins and Perkins would still have a 0.0% chance to get into the hof.

  7. #82
    National High School Star dankok8's Avatar
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    Default Re: If the 18 Warriors are a superteam, how about 93 Suns & 96 Supersonics?

    Quote Originally Posted by Phoenix View Post
    Kemp is a bubble candidate( think that's the right term). If the Sonics won in 96 with him playing as he did that would have likely tipped him firmly into HOF territory regardless of his post Seattle flameout. As it stands now he may get voted in during a weak candidate year, but he's been eligible for a while now. If he hasnt gotten in the last 15 years you have to ask what would make him get randomly picked one year. As an aside, Ben wallace should have gotten in by now as well.

    Good point about Bosh and this is where the HOF reasoning gets tricky as you said. Without that Miami run he possibly toils in mediocrity for his career, puts up a 8 year window of 20-10 or whatever and nobody cares after the fact. That's partly why the basketball community in general needs to get better at determining who is actually good at basketball without leaning on championships. Its become a lazy argument to separate the cream but so much of how much you win or loss is circumstantial.
    I think Bosh would still be a borderline HOFer because he would put up much better numbers without joining the Heat but now he's a lock. Possibly even 1st ballot. To be honest I'm all for championships elevating guys' resumes a lot but only those actually leading their teams to titles. Not like third bananas... For example I consider Isiah Thomas better at basketball than Chris Paul but I'm not sure I consider Chris Bosh better than Elton Brand. I don't think Bosh's rings should have a big impact on how he's perceived because a lot of guys could have done what he did.

  8. #83
    ISH Bingo card Phoenix's Avatar
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    Default Re: If the 18 Warriors are a superteam, how about 93 Suns & 96 Supersonics?

    Quote Originally Posted by dankok8 View Post
    I think Bosh would still be a borderline HOFer because he would put up much better numbers without joining the Heat but now he's a lock. Possibly even 1st ballot. To be honest I'm all for championships elevating guys' resumes a lot but only those actually leading their teams to titles. Not like third bananas... For example I consider Isiah Thomas better at basketball than Chris Paul but I'm not sure I consider Chris Bosh better than Elton Brand. I don't think Bosh's rings should have a big impact on how he's perceived because a lot of guys could have done what he did.
    So the question then becomes should Bosh's seasons outside of 2010-2014 warrant a HOF career, especially since you say his rings shouldn't carry 'that' much weight as a third banana. Or is the combo of his Toronto seasons and what he did in Miami that makes him first ballot in your eyes?

  9. #84
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    Default Re: If the 18 Warriors are a superteam, how about 93 Suns & 96 Supersonics?

    Quote Originally Posted by dankok8 View Post
    Talking about HOFers is fools' gold because those HOF credentials are heavily dependent on winning a title. If the Sonics beat the Bulls in 1996 is it possible that Kemp, Detlef and possibly even a guy like Hawkins or Perkins make another couple of All-Star games and get into the HOF? Absolutely. Kemp was hurt by a lack of longevity but talent-wise he's a HOFer easily. KJ not already being a HOFer is kind of a travesty to be honest. I think both he and Chambers would have made it comfortably if the Suns beat the Bulls in 1993.

    Anyways the 2018 Warriors are better than either of those teams IMO. They are offensive-minded like the 1993 Suns but a bit better.
    How are you this stupid?

    Hawkins by '96 - 29 years old and 1 All-Star game

    Perkins by '96 - 34 years old and ZERO other accolades

    Detlef by '96 - 33 years old and 3x All-Star

    Even if the Sonics win the title, there's ZERO percent chance of any of them making the HOF. The only player who remotely had a chance was Detlef and that would've only MAYBE (still doubtful) happened IF he won an FMVP.

    Sit down, clown.

  10. #85
    NBA Legend and Hall of Famer 3ball's Avatar
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    Default Re: If the 18 Warriors are a superteam, how about 93 Suns & 96 Supersonics?

    Quote Originally Posted by aj1987 View Post
    How are you this stupid?

    Hawkins by '96 - 29 years old and 1 All-Star game

    Perkins by '96 - 34 years old and ZERO other accolades

    Detlef by '96 - 33 years old and 3x All-Star

    Even if the Sonics win the title, there's ZERO percent chance of any of them making the HOF. The only player who remotely had a chance was Detlef and that would've only MAYBE (still doubtful) happened IF he won an FMVP.

    Sit down, clown.
    Who cares

    It's all about talent-deficits, and Jordan faced more than lebron

    Lebron only faced talent deficits in 07', 15', and 18'... and maybe 17'

    Otoh, Jordan faced talent deficits in most ECF and Finals.. and Jordan had a lottery cast when he overcame the #1 SRS and "big 4" in the 89' 1st Round .. he also beat the 92' Knicks, who destroyed pippen and had the bulls outmatched at every other spot too..

    Ultimately, lebron never beat a top 5 SRS team without good scoring and efficiency from a sidekick - so he never had a carry-job against a good team, whereas MJ had carry-jobs against good teams all the time
    Last edited by 3ball; 11-26-2020 at 03:55 PM.

  11. #86
    MH! aj1987's Avatar
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    Default Re: If the 18 Warriors are a superteam, how about 93 Suns & 96 Supersonics?

    Quote Originally Posted by 3ball View Post
    Who cares

    It's all about talent-deficits, and Jordan faced more than lebron

    Lebron only faced talent deficits in 07', 15', and 18'... Maybe 17' but it's debateable

    Jordan faced talent deficits in most ECF and Finals.. and Jordan had a lottery cast when he overcame the #1 SRS and "big 4" in the 89' 1st Round .. he also beat the 92' Knicks, who destroyed pippen and had the bulls outmatched at every other spot too..

    Ultimately, lebron never beat a top 5 SRS team without good scoring and efficiency from a sidekick - so he never had a carry-job against a good team, whereas MJ had carry-jobs against good teams all the time
    Ordan was dogshit first round fodder or lottery bound without Pippen.

    A glorified Jerry Stackhouse. Heck, replace Ordan with Stackhouse, he probably does better than 1-9.


  12. #87
    NBA Legend and Hall of Famer 3ball's Avatar
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    Default Re: If the 18 Warriors are a superteam, how about 93 Suns & 96 Supersonics?

    Quote Originally Posted by aj1987 View Post
    Ordan was dogshit first round fodder or lottery bound without Pippen.

    A glorified Jerry Stackhouse. Heck, replace Ordan with Stackhouse, he probably does better than 1-9.


    Lebron needed 2 pippens (2 stars) or someone to lead the league in playoff scoring... That's a lot more than pippen

    Lebron teamed up with Wade/Bosh and went 2/4 including the goat choke and goat loss... That's goat? Really? The best we've ever seen?

    gtfo

  13. #88
    Kropotkin stan RRR3's Avatar
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    Default Re: If the 18 Warriors are a superteam, how about 93 Suns & 96 Supersonics?

    Quote Originally Posted by aj1987 View Post
    How are you this stupid?

    Hawkins by '96 - 29 years old and 1 All-Star game

    Perkins by '96 - 34 years old and ZERO other accolades

    Detlef by '96 - 33 years old and 3x All-Star

    Even if the Sonics win the title, there's ZERO percent chance of any of them making the HOF. The only player who remotely had a chance was Detlef and that would've only MAYBE (still doubtful) happened IF he won an FMVP.

    Sit down, clown.
    MJ stans make no sense. Sam friggin Perkins is a HOFer, but Pippen is trash? Huh?

  14. #89
    NBA Legend and Hall of Famer 3ball's Avatar
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    Default Re: If the 18 Warriors are a superteam, how about 93 Suns & 96 Supersonics?

    Quote Originally Posted by RRR3 View Post
    MJ stans make no sense. Sam friggin Perkins is a HOFer, but Pippen is trash? Huh?

    Pippen averaged 15 on 34% in the 96' Finals

    That's the worst any 2nd option ever played in a Finals, let alone a WINNING finals

    Only MJ beat good teams (top 5 SRS) with poor scoring and efficiency from a sidekick, so only MJ had carry-jobs against good teams

    Happy holidays y'all!

  15. #90
    National High School Star dankok8's Avatar
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    Default Re: If the 18 Warriors are a superteam, how about 93 Suns & 96 Supersonics?

    Quote Originally Posted by Phoenix View Post
    So the question then becomes should Bosh's seasons outside of 2010-2014 warrant a HOF career, especially since you say his rings shouldn't carry 'that' much weight as a third banana. Or is the combo of his Toronto seasons and what he did in Miami that makes him first ballot in your eyes?
    Well if he played his whole career in Toronto he'd probably still make 7-8 all-star games because he would put up better numbers as the #1 guy. And that alone is good enough for HOF even in this era.

    But yea rings should only carry weight if you win as the #1 guy because that's a relatively rare accomplishment. Even 2nd banana guys on championship teams... there's maybe even two hundred guys in NBA history who could have done it as a 2nd guy. That's not rare and shouldn't figure into HOF discussion much. 3rd banana rings shouldn't matter at all.

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